Is o8 a limpers game?

[Buzz]

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You're not interested in winning pots, you're interested in winning money,

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Ribbo - Yes! I agree completely!

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You should raise ANY edge you have on any street, this is how you win money,

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That's not necessarily true. Sometimes you can win more money by somehow luring more opponents into paying more on later betting rounds. For example, when you flop quad kings from late position on second street, with an off-suit queen as the third flop card, and when somebody in early position bets and gets three limpers, maybe you don't want to pull the trigger just yet.

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this is not how you win pots,

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That's not necessarily true either. Sometimes you can raise before the flop, limiting the field in the process, and knocking out someone who would otherwise have beaten you.

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but you don't care about winning pots.

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Sure you do. You can't win any money if you don't win any pots.

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But good players raise a wide variety of profitable preflop hands.

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True.

Styles differ among good players. Raising frequencies vary. Someone who raises with a good starting hand isn't necessarily a better player than someone who doesn't.

You and I will probably never agree on how often one should raise before the flop. In my humble opinion, whether or not you raise before the flop very much more depends on the particular opponents you're playing (and how they play) than on the cards you have been dealt. Obviously I don't mean you should be raising with garbage, at least very often.

Your playing style is not the same as mine. I imagine you make your playing style work for you and whether you do or not, and whether I could make your style work for me or not, I very much appreciate reading your point of view. Gives me insight into a different way of looking at things.

I can't play like Mike Cappelletti. I get my butt kicked when I try. He's obviously a very intelligent man, and I believe he makes his style work for him. But I just can't seem make it work for me. I've incorporated some elements of his game into my own, but other tactics he suggests backfire on me when I try to use them. However, I think knowing more about how he plays and also how you play helps my game.

So thank you for your useful insights.

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Your preflop selection of hands is the single contributing factor in limit O8 to whether or not you will be a successful player.

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I've read that opinion elsewhere. And I agree starting hand selection is very important. I've spent thousands of hours simulating, figuring, and thinking about starting hands, and it's an on-going study for me. I wouldn't bother with that if I didn't think starting hand selection was very important.

However:
(1) I think I win more from opponents who don't know when to quit than from those who see the flop with too many hands.
(2) In some games I can get away with seeing the flop cheaply with lots of hands I consider marginal. But I only rarely get away with continuing after the flop with a hand that doesn't have much chance of success.
(3) There are four betting rounds - not just one - not just the first betting round. The amount you and your opponents invest on the three betting rounds after the flop is generally more than you invest on the first betting round.
(4) You have more information at your disposal on each successive betting round. Assuming you are capable of using the information available, the more the better.
(5) I can make a better decision as to the worth of the cards I have been dealt after I see how my hand meshes with the flop than knowing how well the hand simulates before any board cards are known.
(6) Whoever has the best hand at any juncture if play stopped at that point does not matter unless play stops at that point. Otherwise the one who has the best hand <font color="red">on the river</font> will prevail.

And therefore I think post flop play is at least as important as starting hand selection, if not more so.

I'll agree starting hand selection is very important. But it's not all there is to the game, or even most of it.

Lastly, you can't really tell when you have an edge before the flop. You can only know how your hand stands relative to random cards on the board and in the hands of your opponents. Whether or not you actually have an edge depends on the cards that will come to be on the board at the river, and also on what cards each of your opponents holds. For example, if you hold double suited kings and queens, a pretty nice starting hand, but if your opponents collectively hold all the missing kings and queens, then the main source of power for your hand is rendered useless. Doesn't mean you can't win with the hand, which still has flush and straight potential, but wouldn't it be a lot nicer to see a king or a queen on the flop?

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[Buzz]

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what's most important is that he is giving good advice here.

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Pipes - I think not.

On the other hand, if you can make it work for you, then more power to you.

Buzz

[Buzz]

Esactly.

[pipes]

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what's most important is that he is giving good advice here.

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Pipes - I think not.

On the other hand, if you can make it work for you, then more power to you.

Buzz

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I think many people who are afraid to raise preflop in this game with a premium hand should read Small Stakes Hold'em. To maximize winnings you should take value wherever it exists.

I don't buy the argument that it reduces your equity on future streets. If anything it ties your opponents onto their hands. Because the pot is bigger they will hang onto non nut low draws, non nut flushes, and bottom two pair for dear life. With a bigger pot, you should loosen up a little as well but not too much. Its a win win situation.

[Mendacious]

This is precisely what I was intending to say, but I think that it does apply more to smaller limits than higher limits.

[Phat Mack]

k^2,

I like your post.

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the question is why should you raise a hand with a marginal advantage if that puts you in a position to not have a more significant advantage to press later? How much value do you gain from making the raise now, and how much do you lose later? Does raising define your hand in omaha? Would you raise a hand that didn't have a low draw? If the answer is no then it seems you are giving away a lot of information about your hand pre-flop information that can easily be used to dominate you based on the flop conditions.

What hands do you advocate raising with?

Furthermore, I am not suggesting that raising is something that should never be done. Rather, I believe that raising is much more positional and situational than in hold'em.

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I tend to raise BTF in limit O8 based solely on the situation. There are situations where if I'm going to play, I'm going to raise. None of these raises are predicated on hand strength. All of the raises are intended to create better situations on later streets, and all depend on position and opponents.

Making BTF raises based on hand strength gives up too much information. An analogous situation occurs on the river with players who refuse to raise with nut lows. The cost of getting quartered in limit O8 isn't as great as many players feel, and not raising only-low hands costs them when they raise their highs and scoopers.

Mack

P.S. As an aside, there were some great threads on raising all-high and A4xx hands on this forum about 5 years ago. They are hard to find since Badger, one of the participants, had his posts deleted, but they may be available elsewhere on the internet.

[Wintermute]

The best time to raise preflop in a limit omaha game is when it limps around to you in the BB. What you do is this: get a sick, malicious grin on your face, announce "GOING UP!" or "GOING UP, MOTHERFCUKERS!" for added emphasis, and proudly slam in another 4 bucks. Then you get to sit back and enjoy watching the dealer poke each of the 7 or 8 crotchety old fart limpers awake in turn, explain to them that the pot was raised, hear each and every one of the dusty bastards croak out "who raised?!", dealer points to you (widen your grin at this moment), ancient fcuker will then glare at you with murderous intent and cough up the extra bet.

It's priceless fun, and will help your image immensely and make it easier to eventually walk out of the place with a solid chunk of liberated social security benefits.

[Mendacious]

LOL-- That's pretty much how I learned Limit O8 in the Indian Casino.

[Ironman]

Funniest friggin' post I've ever read...

Dave

[Buzz]

Wintermute - It makes me sad that you saw fit to write that post.

I oppose discrimination. I think it's ugly. I'm not only talking about racial discrimination and gender discrimination - but also about age discrimination.

Anti-racial jokes and racial slurs show bad judgement, are in poor taste, and are a form of racial discrimination. There's just no way around it. And slurs against older folks are a form of age discrimination.

Having written the above, I can see an element humor in your post. But it's crude humor derived at the expense of a whole group of people.

It's unbecoming to you.

Buzz