Reraising on third st in stud hi lo...

[Mike Gallo]

Today I played in a "good" 5-10 hi-lo game. This game consists of three or four regular players, and players waiting to get into a 5-10 stud game. Some players play in this game to try a "new" game.The limit isnt too steap. The lineup for this game is generally softer than the hold em line ups on a Saturday night.

I had a hand today that I do not know if I played properly.
Please have patience because I have never posted a stud hand before.

I am in the nine seat and action started with the four seat. I had split kings with an ace kicker. An ace and a king were both up so I only had 1 king left and two aces left to improve my hand. My hand was comatose.

J xx call
7 xx call
A xx fold
2xx bring in, call
Kxx fold
Qxx complete to $5
KAK I called..............should I have reraised ?

I caught an Ace on fifth street and was first to act.The Queens caught a 2.I had the high hand and bet and got called in three spots.I thought of check raising, but I didnt want to give a free card. It might have gotten checked around. One of the players had a very scary looking straight board.

On sixth street I didnt improve and I check, folded. The player who bet made his straight. His board was coordinated and this player only bet the nuts. An Ace and a King hit someone else, so I had no outs left. The person with the seven won the high with a straight and there wasnt a low. The person who competed called him down with Queens up.

Would a reraise on third street have been a better play? I called for deception and because my outs were limited. Looking back perhaps I should have reraised because my outs were limited.I should have tried to win the pot right there. A reraise might have been a superior play. Is that a reraise or fold type of hand? A reraise there announces split King's or pocket Ace's King kicker. Had an Ace been exposed the reraise could have been a hand like A 2 3 or a low hand.

I would appreciate any advice.

[Rick Nebiolo]

Mg,

Warning: I’m just learning this game so beware but since I’m up drinking my warm milk …

I find these hands very hard to play if the players with good upcards behind like to tangle and are good at applying pressure on later streets. In your case you have the seven, ace and deuce showing low. If a reraise usually gets all or most out then do it. Otherwise you might want to fold, as this hand does not play well on later streets unless heads up or against no more than one opponent showing a low or an ace. In my limited experience, your hand developed typically bad.

Now the warm milk is working so I’ll leave it to the experts [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Regards,

Rick

[Fraubump]

I also am not an expert, but here's my 2 cents worth. Since a showing queen completed and you know where half the aces are, odds are against a pair of aces there, so ideally you play the hand heads up against that hand. You have limited chances at improvement, so many opponents are trouble. Since there are so many opponents with low doors to act, this is probably a fold, but you could try a raise and see what happens. If you know from your play at the table that no one will fold, then this is the wrong play. But if you think you have a chance of narrowing the field to just you and the completer and maybe 1 low, then it would be ok. Calling seems the worst move.

[Mike Gallo]

If a reraise usually gets all or most out then do it. Otherwise you might want to fold, as this hand does not play well on later streets unless heads up or against no more than one opponent showing a low or an ace. In my limited experience, your hand developed typically bad.

I realized later that I did indeed make a "mistake" according to the Fundamental Theory of Poker. My opponent completed with a lesser hand and I should have raised. My opponent gained, I lost. Especially since I didn't have a live hand. I made a mistake on third street that cost me the pot.

Thanks for the reply

[Ray Zee]

reraise is a must here. if only the queens call you are a 3 to 2 favorite to win. if you get one caller plus the queens and he goes for low you are about even (30% or so equity)with the field, but not in a great spot.

[Mike Gallo]

[Andy B]

In the proud tradition of Rick Nebiolo, I am going to respond without reading the other responses. I usually do read the other responses so I don't duplicate too much of what other people say, but I want to see if I have this right since Ray has provided "The Answer."

I'm going to say you have a fold on third street. Your hand is dead, and you still have an Ace to act behind you. If you were very sure that you could get it heads-up with the pair of Queens, that would be good, but with the Ace, Deuce, and even the Seven in there, you can't be sure of it. Since you have people calling full bets with a Jack showing, you have even less reason to believe that you will get it heads-up. You're also anteing only 50 cents, right? So you're not fighting over that much money. I'd sit back and wait for a better gambling opportunity.

Never, ever, let anyone know that you sometimes fold two Kings on third street, though. It's frequently the right thing to do, but if people find out you do that, two bad things will happen. One, they will (probably) stop giving you action. The other thing that might happen is that someone might think about why someone might fold two Kings in this game. He probably won't be able to bring himself to do it because, well, because it's a pair of Kings, dammit. In any case, you don't want your opponents to start thinking. This game is enough work as it is.

Re-raising would be superior to calling, but I think that folding is the best choice, and I don't think it's that close.

Since you called, I don't think that giving a free card on fourth would have been terrible, especially if the lows caught good. In fact, if I were facing 76 and 23, or something like that, I would probably check and call.

At least you didn't get married to your Aces-up when it was obvious that you were beaten. Well done.

Time to see how I did.

[Mike Gallo]

Andy,

After I reread the chapter in Theory of Poker, I realized by calling I made the worst mistake of all. I agree the decision between folding or raising can considered marginal. No sound argument called by made by calling in that spot.

I knew I had to fold on 6th street, when all my outs died and the boards starting looking a lot scarier than mine.

Thanks
MK420

[droidboy]

If we assume that the jacks will fold, and that both low draws actually have low draws (they are sane) and that neither has any kind of straight or flush draw we get the the following results:

<pre><font class="small">code:</font><hr>
Running: pokenum -mc 500000 -7s8 7s 5c 2h - 2s 6d 8h - qc qs 9d - kc kd ah / as ks jc js :
7-card Stud Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
7s 5c 2h 39636 62004 437847 149 217928 52034 1680 0.294
2s 6d 8h 35311 65171 434675 154 168468 101746 1656 0.250
Qs Qc 9d 29495 175399 324580 21 0 0 0 0.205
Kc Kd Ah 40464 197261 302733 6 16358 11506 150 0.252
</pre><hr>

In other words, the kings are breaking even on the round. In other words, they aren't making any money on the round. In other words saying a "reraise is a must" is pretty much absurd.

But that situation is kind of optomistic. What if one of the low draws has a favorable draw, like 7c 5c 4s?

<pre><font class="small">code:</font><hr>
Running: pokenum -mc 500000 -7s8 7c 5c 4s - 2s 6d 8h - qc qs 9d - kc kd ah / as ks jc js :
7-card Stud Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
4s 7c 5c 75116 108624 390976 400 202096 47746 552 0.329
2s 6d 8h 37803 64234 435369 397 161763 88151 526 0.247
Qs Qc 9d 34676 157656 342323 21 0 0 0 0.192
Kc Kd Ah 46246 169073 330919 8 18531 10222 176 0.232
</pre><hr>

Now all of a sudden, you've got less equity than a shitty low draw (862o).

But then again, the 30/60 stud/8 sure was good this weekend. Maybe Ray Zee was the three seat.

Dead kings == dead hand.

[Ray Zee]

the reraise is a must to get it headup against the queens. and if someone has a low you are in an uneventful situation.

too bad you have an agenda.