This seemed extremely basic, until I got a disagreement about it...

[Leroy Soesman]

Suppose you get JJ in EP in NL hold'em. What do you do? Come in for a raise, or just limp? When would you do what, and why?

Be a little elaborate about your answer. For example, relate it to stakes, table texture and postion etc.

This might seem like a beginners question, but i'm no beginner and nor is the guy I disagree with on this subject.

Just to start it off. I think JJ is one of the most difficult hands in NL HE. It is very situationally dependent, and I think that there are times when you come in for a raise, and times you just limp. I won't elaborate on why and where, I hope to hear from you guys first.

[CardBlunt]

In EP, I would generally raise unless the table was loose with players often calling to the river.

This gives me the chance to win outright on the flop if a high card falls which I'll probably lose out on if I just limp.

[stso]

I would raise with this hand in just about any position unless someone already raised in front of me. Depending on my read of that player, I would still consider re-raising just to find out where I stand. Of course it's not the absolute best PP you could have but limping in gives you little chance to win with this hand.

ST

[Vex]

It depends, obviously.

I regularly play a low-stakes tourney with cheap rebuys for the first three rounds. In that tourney, during the rebuy period, every hand is all-in or nothing, and often there are three people in preflop or on the flop every hand. In that tourney, with JJ in any position during the rebuy period, I push all-in preflop and hope for the best.

The odds are high I'll get called with any two broadway cards. I end up against something like AT often enough to counterbalance the few times someone dominates me with a higher pair. Most of the time it's a coin toss, but it's nice when it goes three-way with two high or medium aces.

If I bust, it's $40 for a double rebuy, and if I don't then I've doubled or tripled up.

In that same tournament, for the first couple rounds after rebuy, people are only slightly less inclined to gamble. Pushing all-in here risks your tourney, though, and with JJ you're dominated by three hands and flipping coins with many more. If you limp, half the table (including the blinds) are liable to limp in with you. But, a reasonable preflop raise from EP is likely to get a cold call from someone between you and the blinds, and that is often all it takes to get one or both of the blinds in the pot as well. So, your choices are: 1> Push and hope for a winning coin flip; 2> Limp and hope to flop a set; 3> Raise and not know where you're at. To me, none of those are good choices. If I am on a big stack from the wild-and-crazy rebuy period, I overbet the pot and hope to either take the blinds or get a single caller with an ace high (I'll often fold to a big reraise and if I'm just flat-called I'll be very wary of any Q, K, or A on the flop). Otherwise I join in the limp fest and hope the flop hits me.

In the later stages of that tourney, most of the gamblers are gone but the blinds are getting high and the ante has kicked in. The play is more by-the-book, except that two-thirds of the table will be short-stacked. The game is once again all-in or nothing, except now players are choosing sensible starting hands to make their stands. If I'm short stacked, I push in with JJ here. If I've got a decent stack but there's another big stack downstream from me, I put in a small raise and make any push-call-or-fold decisions depending on who did what after me. If no big stack is in better position than me, I toss in a no-nonsense raise, knowing that anyone who wants to play is going to push in and I will call, and more often than not I will be up against a coinflip or a medium to small pocket pair. I have the chips to risk being dominated by one of the Big Three pocket pairs.

Can anyone offer me any critique on my strategy here, given the gambling nature of this type of tourney?

[Cerril]

JJ is sort of like AK... one piece of advice that I recall is true with both hands (moreso with JJ) - you decide preflop whether you're going to treat is as a drawing hand or a made hand. If you limp, expect to need to improve to win (and release if you don't hit a set like any other low PP). If you raise, try to win with it unimproved.

Now that's not just advice on how often it'll win but how you play it from the flop onward. If you play it like AA, then keep playing it like AA until someone who likely has you beaten decides not to believe you (as was mentioned, try to win the pot outright on the flop), but if you play it like 55 then just figure if it doesn't improve you're dead in the water (of course you also have the possibility of three unders flopping but even then you might be in trouble... not that you'd want to be so weak)

[Paul2432]

[ QUOTE ]
I would raise with this hand in just about any position unless someone already raised in front of me. Depending on my read of that player, I would still consider re-raising just to find out where I stand. Of course it's not the absolute best PP you could have but limping in gives you little chance to win with this hand.

ST

[/ QUOTE ]

How does re-raising tell you where you stand? Plenty of players will re-raise with a worse hand and call with a better one, and vice versa.

I think limping with JJ is a great play in certain situations. If you have a very loose aggressive player on your immediate left, limping lets you see how the rest of the players respond after the LAG raises.

Another reason to limp with JJ in early position is that it keeps the pot small. Unless you flop a set, JJ is not a hand you want to play a big pot with out of position. For example, suppose you raise pre-flop and get called, and then bet the flop and get called. You are now in a terrible situation which could have been avoided by limping pre-flop.

Paul

[illguitar]

I would raise quite a bit. If I am around 10 BB I probably go all-in. Its gonna be a coin flip if you are called...OR you are a HUGE dog. That, however, is unlikely. I would raise 5 or more times the blind to force out lots of hands. 3 times seems to be the gold standard, but with JJ, getting more people to fold is my goal. by the way. When an A or K flops, especially a K since people are more likely to call with an A, I would push hard again. This obviously cant happen if you are short-stacked, but again if I was short-stacked I would be all-in anyway. There are few situations where it comes heavily into play. If you are called, you're almost surely dead meat.

[binions]

There are no absolutes. Holdem is so situational. What is the game like? How deep are the stacks? What's your image? How likely are the blinds to defend?

[jimymat]

If your in a regular round game position is everything. Id limp in with it. There will be an overcard on the flop over 50% of the time and if you raise you will only limit the field down to players who have those over cards. Late position raise and if its checked to you on the flop bet it. If your bet into with an overcard showing you fold. Theres always a better hand around the corner. Tournament play is dfifferent. Push them out with a big raise, tournament you play super tight in the beginning to last so I would fold it. The chips you save now are chips you can use later when you have a big hand. This basically goes for QQ also. They are one of the most overrated hands in poker unless your in a tournament late stages. You never know where your at with either one. QQ has 38% chance of overcards I believe, with two or more callers you can forget about it. Id rather take a suited connector. Good luck.

[sucka]

[ QUOTE ]
In EP, I would generally raise unless the table was loose with players often calling to the river.

This gives me the chance to win outright on the flop if a high card falls which I'll probably lose out on if I just limp.

[/ QUOTE ]

Congrats, your first post is filled with horrible advice. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Welcome to the board!

In all seriousness, the correct answer here, like in so many other NL situations is 'it depends'.

It depends on stack size, the other players, the tone of the table, your image, your ability to read the other players and what they will come over the top of you with, etc...

In general though, I'd raise here (standard raise 3-4X the BB) and see what happens. If you get called, particularly in more than 1 spot, a big flop is more than likely to hurt you than allow you to push everyone out.

NL is an extremely situational game - there's no perfect play for any hand in any situation.