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  #11  
Old 12-26-2005, 12:27 PM
tom441lbk tom441lbk is offline
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Default Re: Passing up 7:1 pot odds with KQo

45suited,

I agree more in that I like a hand like 45s-T8s.

I also agree that KQ is one of the worst hands to have here, but I also see donkey raises and calls here. If UTG would have raise to 175 or so and two callers I would be more inclined to give it up here, and I think your argument works more for this sized raise.

I like getting into pots, in safe spots if I have a comfortable chip stack, in 25-50 and 50-100 levels to look for more chips. However your chipstack is kinda at that awkward level, but I think I find the room to spare 50 chips right here, because I don't think it hurts us *that* bad.

I also agree that we have to watch out for UTG, but I still don't mind getting my chips in on a K or Q high flop in a minraised pot, but maybe I'm just a donkey.

lbk
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  #12  
Old 12-26-2005, 12:56 PM
Burno Burno is offline
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Default Re: Passing up 7:1 pot odds with KQo

[ QUOTE ]

What are the 2 clues that UTG is a muppet?


[/ QUOTE ]

Clue 1. He has 2250 chips on level 3. As counterintuitive as it may seem, I believe that a bad player is much more likely to have a bunch of chips at level 3 vs. a good player.

Clue 2. He has minraised UTG. I know lots of good SNG players. I can think of one or two that minraise at the 25/50 level, and they generally do it in LP.


Now, one look at his PT numbers oughta solidify or nullify this read.
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  #13  
Old 12-26-2005, 01:02 PM
Burno Burno is offline
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Default Re: Passing up 7:1 pot odds with KQo

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If MP or the button bets after UTG and I check, I probably will c/r all in if their PT numbers tell me they suck, but that depends on the flop texture and a few other things as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I respect your opinion, but the problem with this line is that if you C/R all-in, UTG is still to act after you. That could be very bad.


[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. As I said, I'd probably push over the shortstacks, the big factor would be my "reads" (PT numbers) of whoever bets the flop and of UTG. I have no problem at all letting one pair go here if UTG comes out betting, if it goes MP bet -button call, or if something just doesn't feel right, as silly as that sounds. Put another way, with just one pair in this situation, I'm going to err on the side of caution.
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  #14  
Old 12-26-2005, 01:03 PM
45suited 45suited is offline
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Default Re: Passing up 7:1 pot odds with KQo

I don't really see that it matters if he's a muppet. I mean, say for the sake of argument that he's a muppet. Is he more or less likely to be mini-raising UTG with a hand that dominates you?

I don't think anyone really knows the answer to that question.

Plus, don't forget that all the other factors are still in play: Likelihood of domination, playing OOP, a stack not big enough to play the hand for information, having to play TP weakly, and a stack that is just fine if I fold and move on.

And if he IS a muppet, there will come a time later, in a spot not nearly so tricky, where I will exploit his 'muppetness'.

Interesting discussion though. Thanks for giving me your feedback.
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  #15  
Old 12-26-2005, 01:04 PM
z32fanatic z32fanatic is offline
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Default Re: Passing up 7:1 pot odds with KQo

I would definitely call with KQ and 1000 chips here. Don't fear the min raise in level 3.
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  #16  
Old 12-26-2005, 01:11 PM
45suited 45suited is offline
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Default Re: Passing up 7:1 pot odds with KQo

[ QUOTE ]
I would definitely call with KQ and 1000 chips here. Don't fear the min raise in level 3.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not that I was fearing the mini-raise, but also that in the process of playing my hand with caution, I'm also letting all kinds of other hands beat me as well.

In this exact spot, do you think you're giving anything up by mucking pre-flop?
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  #17  
Old 12-26-2005, 01:11 PM
Burno Burno is offline
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Default Re: Passing up 7:1 pot odds with KQo

[ QUOTE ]

I honestly think that KQo, in this particular case, is one of the worst hands to have here. Again, I'd call with something like 67s before calling with this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think KQ is as bad you are making it out to be in this situation. Assuming your opponents are typical, KQ dominates far more hands in their range than it is dominated by. Do you agree?

KQ is a trouble hand in a lot of situations because unless it flops hard, you are often in danger of being dominated or simply 2nd best. But I think the reverse is also worth considering. Flops that hit KQ hard(6QK, TJA) often give a the PFR a hand he'll stack off with.
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  #18  
Old 12-26-2005, 01:24 PM
45suited 45suited is offline
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Default Re: Passing up 7:1 pot odds with KQo

[ QUOTE ]
KQ is a trouble hand in a lot of situations because unless it flops hard, you are often in danger of being dominated or simply 2nd best. But I think the reverse is also worth considering. Flops that hit KQ hard(6QK, TJA) often give a the PFR a hand he'll stack off with.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a very good point.

RESULTS: In THIS case, it worked out for me.

UTG had AK, one of the callers had KT. Don't know what the other caller had.

Obviously I'm not saying that because I dodged a bullet in this case that I necessarily made the 'correct' decision. But I thought that the hand would generate a good discussion.
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  #19  
Old 12-26-2005, 01:35 PM
Burno Burno is offline
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Default Re: Passing up 7:1 pot odds with KQo

[ QUOTE ]
But I thought that the hand would generate a good discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I believe it has. I'm starting to get the feeling that maybe it's close enough to be nearly irrelevant, although this is a game based on the accumulation of small edges over time [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] I'm eager to hear a couple of the big guns weigh in.

Somebody go wake curtains up.
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  #20  
Old 12-26-2005, 01:43 PM
kyro kyro is offline
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Default Re: Passing up 7:1 pot odds with KQo

[ QUOTE ]
Somebody go wake curtains up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let the guy do his chick in peace. Jeez.

45, I call that hand all day long as well. Play smart on the flop and you should be OK.
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