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  #1  
Old 06-14-2005, 06:56 PM
Origami Origami is offline
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Default Bringing This Back Up For Discussion (X-Post)

Have been searching through the archives and found what I thought to be a really great post. Original poster is ArtVandelay and can be found here.

Since this was written nearly 2 years ago, I would like to see a discussion as to whether you all feel these concepts still apply to today's NL games.

When replying to other posts I often find myself saying the same things over and over, so I thought I'd combine some of my thoughts on big bet Hold'em into one coherent post. Comments welcome.

1. If you are new to big bet always bet/raise exactly the pot.

The two main advantages of this are first, that it makes your decisions much simpler, because like in limit you only have 2 or 3 possible choices for each decision. The second advantage is that you will never give anything away with the size of your bet because you always bet the same amount. There are many other reasons to do this as well, but as I've discussed them in many other threads I won't go into the details here.

2. Unless the stacks are short, pre-flop doesn't matter.

Unless the money is short (as it often is online, because of the ridiculously low max buy-ins), it is almost never the case that even 10% of your stack goes in pre-flop. A large part of your net P/L from big bet comes from the all-in hands, and all that matters then is what you hold when the money goes in the middle, not what you had before the flop. Of course this is massively oversimplifying, but the point is that you should play hands which can flop big (pairs, suited aces, and suited connectors) and avoid trouble hands like AQo and other unsuited high card hands. Furthermore, if you never raise pre-flop, it's probably not that far from wrong (I say this because a lot of people get into trouble raising big cards pre-flop and missing, and if you only call with them you also need to smooth call the big pairs for deception).

3. A call is a scary play.

Assuming you follow point one of my advice, the way big bet should be played is with lots of betting and raising and almost no calling. When I'm playing 5/5 pot limit Hold'em and I bet the flop, if anyone calls me the first thing I worry about is them having the nuts. Because I'm usually betting the pot, my opponents only ever get 2-1 on a call, which in Hold'em in almost never proper odds (except with a big draw, like flush and open-ender or flush and pair). So if they don't have odds to draw, what are they calling with? An important example of this is when someone bets the pot and someone else calls, if the caller is a decent player you should be extremely tight when acting behind.

4. Be patient.

The following is not an unreasonable description of the experience of playing big bet Hold'em: hours of boredom followed by a full minute of pure fear. You simply cannot get impatient, or you will lose every chip. Big bet Hold'em is a game of the nuts, and anything else is a bluff. Again, this applies more when the stacks are deeper, but it is true that you generally need to wait for a big hand before committing all your chips. Most importantly, this isn't like limit where waiting for a hand means waiting until you are dealt a big ace or big pair pre-flop, in big bet waiting for a hand is waiting to flop a big hand (remember point 2).

5. Know your opponents.

You've probably heard this before, but in big bet far more than in limit it's so important to know your opponents, how they play, etc. Who I am up against is often the number one thing I consider when making a decision, and without knowledge of your opponents you're not playing poker, you're gambling.

6. Be objective and not results oriented when analyzing past hands.

So often I'll see posts in this forum that say, here's a hand that I lost, so what did I do wrong? Even worse is when people think they played the hand wrong because they got the money in as a favorite and lost anyway ("I should have bet more to push him off his hand"). The worst trap though is selective results orientation. There are enough levels of results orientation that you are always winning at one of them, and you tend to focus in on it ("he didn't have the implied to call my pre-flop raise," or "he didn't have odds to draw to the flush on the turn") while ignoring that you put in your whole stack as a huge dog or wherever else you made a mistake. I'm not saying you should beat yourself up, just try to be objective and fair.

7. Don't play with money that matters to you.

Once again, I'm repeating the advice of about 1000 different authors, but the thing to realize is that in big bet your whole stack is at risk every single hand (unless you have the big stack of course). Furthermore, no matter how good you are, you'll almost never get the money in as a lock (if you wait for the mortal nuts you definitely won't win), and you have to be emotionally and financially prepared for bad beats. The real problem is that scared money is easily taken, while irrelevant money is scary to play against.

8. Consider the depth of the money when making the play.

Almost as important as your opponents is how deep the stacks are. Think carefully about things like who will put in the last bet, how tough a spot will you be in if raised, whether you will be able to get away from your hand if a scare card comes, etc. One principle along these lines is that when you have a draw and are semi-bluffing make sure it's you who makes the committing raise, while when you have a big made hand it's okay either way.

9. Know the odds.

There are so few probabilities in Hold'em that it's pretty important to know them. Some you can calculate at the table, but it really is quite helpful to know things like odds of pair over pair, odds to flop a set, odds to make a particular draw on the very next card, etc.

10. Keep yourself out a tough spots.

Finally, I think this a great principle to apply to your play. Always try to arrange the betting so that your opponent can't give you a difficult decision. If you really hate getting raised then don't bet, but if you have an easy laydown when your opponent pushes back all-in go ahead and come over the top of his bet with thin values. Try to force your opponents to make hard decisions well keeping the easy ones for yourself, and you'll be much more successful.

I hope this has been helpful to some of you, and good luck in the future.
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  #2  
Old 06-14-2005, 11:24 PM
Origami Origami is offline
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Default Re: Bringing This Back Up For Discussion (X-Post)

Nobody finds this worthy of discussion?
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  #3  
Old 06-14-2005, 11:35 PM
Muisyle Muisyle is offline
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Default Re: Bringing This Back Up For Discussion (X-Post)

You blinded them all. Try not bolding your entire post next time.
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  #4  
Old 06-15-2005, 09:49 AM
JFB37 JFB37 is offline
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Default Re: Bringing This Back Up For Discussion (X-Post)

It doesn't look like there is much interest, but I'll give a few observations. There are some good things in there but a few that are questionable.

[ QUOTE ]
if you never raise pre-flop, it's probably not that far from wrong

[/ QUOTE ]

I strongly disagree.

[ QUOTE ]
Big bet Hold'em is a game of the nuts, and anything else is a bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is simplistic and misleading. If you only play for the nuts you will slowly go broke. Among the best advice I have gleaned from 2+2 is learning how and when to value bet.
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  #5  
Old 06-15-2005, 09:59 AM
AceHiStation AceHiStation is offline
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Default Re: Bringing This Back Up For Discussion (X-Post)

I disagree with 1, 2, 4, and 6... but after reading that bolded post, don't feel like being articulate.
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  #6  
Old 06-15-2005, 10:29 AM
KaneKungFu123 KaneKungFu123 is offline
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Default Re: Bringing This Back Up For Discussion (X-Post)

pretty useless....
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  #7  
Old 06-15-2005, 10:39 AM
turnipmonster turnipmonster is offline
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Default Re: Bringing This Back Up For Discussion (X-Post)

the guy that posted this used to play in the same game as me, one thing to keep in mind is he's posting about a PL game where short money is 100BB and your opponents are all betting and raising the pot. I think it has some good points for a NL newbie but don't agree with all of it either.

the "always bet the pot" thing obviously isn't correct, but it isn't terrible advice and it's much better than always betting 1/4 pot and minraising for a new player. note that people that always bet the pot can be very tough to play against, there have been numerous hands on here where I remember pointing out how tough it is to play against someone who does this.
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  #8  
Old 06-15-2005, 01:13 PM
108suited 108suited is offline
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Default Re: Bringing This Back Up For Discussion (X-Post)

"Always try to arrange the betting so that your opponent can't give you a difficult decision. If you really hate getting raised then don't bet, but if you have an easy laydown when your opponent pushes back all-in go ahead and come over the top of his bet with thin values."

I thought this part was interesting, and I'd like to see an example of how it might be applied.

I actually attempted to apply this advice yeterday with the following 10/20NL hand:

Me 55. I raised 60 and was called. Flop 7 6 Q with 2 clubs. It was checked to me and I bet 140, my opponent ck rsed me to 500, I rrsed to 1k, knowing I was done with the hand unless I improved. I thought he might have been raising me with a hand such as KQ or JQ and didn't think he'd be willing to commit with those hands. Interesting concept.

Overall I think most of the advice is good and it apppeared that a couple of posters pointed out most of the weaknesses of the advice.
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  #9  
Old 06-15-2005, 01:35 PM
gomberg gomberg is offline
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Default Re: Bringing This Back Up For Discussion (X-Post)

[ QUOTE ]
Me 55. I raised 60 and was called. Flop 7 6 Q with 2 clubs. It was checked to me and I bet 140, my opponent ck rsed me to 500, I rrsed to 1k, knowing I was done with the hand unless I improved. I thought he might have been raising me with a hand such as KQ or JQ and didn't think he'd be willing to commit with those hands. Interesting concept.

[/ QUOTE ]

This play has been a leak in my game at that level... doesn't seem to work enough - or i'm just getting unlucky that they have hands and / or not picking the right people to try it against. I love 3-bet bluffs in NL after a steal play and continuation bet - super expensive when they fail [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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  #10  
Old 06-15-2005, 05:38 PM
Origami Origami is offline
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Default Re: Bringing This Back Up For Discussion (X-Post)

Sorry to those who complained about bolding the post. I couldn't "quote" it because it was from the archives.

Furthermore, if you never raise pre-flop, it's probably not that far from wrong (I say this because a lot of people get into trouble raising big cards pre-flop and missing, and if you only call with them you also need to smooth call the big pairs for deception).

Why is this considered to be incorrect?
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