Weak 4th street check?

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Well, I didn't mention it, but a fairly tight playerin the 8 seat called a completion with a with a 3 of spades as his door, and spades were completely live. I think falling into the trap of betting someones four flush would have been a mistake. Failing to recognize that some of my opponents may have caught nicely would be a mistake IMO. What would you do if one of your opponents paired his doorcard? Do you still lead out and bet?

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I don't like betting his four-flush, but I might be able to get up against just hit four-flush. Further, we know there are three dead cards to his four-flush - though, maybe (and I didn't say this originally) the live Aces make up for this? I am not too good with odds...

If one of them paired their door, I would consider folding and wonder why I let them pair such a crappy door card by not knocking them out the pot on 3rd. If I think he there is good chance he now only has a one pair hands or a low two pair, I might raise him, assuming he lead out, as this will likely get your heads-up in a sizeable pot as not too much of an underdog - if he has two pair below your Jacks.

Disclaimer part two: I really am idiot, I answered a 5 Stud question with 7 Stud earlier [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].

I would probably raise straight from the get-go on 3rd. This is because I do not want my Jacks tested by 5-6 players random holdings that they may consider just good enough to peel one off. Were you going for the call/reraise? Or, was that a result of Seat 5 raising? We know your Hearts are dead, so we surely do not want many people in the pot.

Well... they all called. On 4th we see a King die and an Ace hit (along with more dead hearts and a load of dead possible straightening cards, if you were to have been lucky). Would seat 8 check/raise Aces in this position? Check/call with them? There is only one other overcard out, and all the other boards look pretty shabby (as in, except 6 and 8). My thinking is that 8 probably did not make Aces. Further, if he just made a four-flush, we know three of his cards are dead. (So, he is drawing to 6 cards instead of 9 - given that, we would really like to be heads-up or short-handed with him here.)

Seat 6 is a weird one. We now have reason to doubt he has Tens and a reason to doubt his Kings. Further, if he does have Tens, we are in really good shape now. We also have a good reason to doubt a straight draw. In general, though I am not sure what he has, I think I could often have him beat here. If he does have Kings, we have a bit of a problem though...

Seat 2 appears to have a complete shambles. Of course, he still called the 3rd street completion and raise. Seat 5 only called the raise on 3rd - either he is happy multiway or thinking that he probably should not have completed.

I think you bet out here, hoping to fold as much as possible. You are most likely buying equity, even if you are not in there with the best hand. I do not think you are going to beat 4 hands at 7th. However, I think you probably have the best hand here - at least with reasonable frequency.

Further, I think you should raise when seat 6 decides you are not going to just sit there and all see how nice of a hand we can make. If you had made the original bet, anyone with a decent hand in 5, 6 or 8 would have helped your reduce the participant count here. I don't think the uncertainty we buy by not following up on the 3rd raise is worth it in this situation.

On 5th, well... now we have a mess. Just about every opponent *could* have you beat here. Probably they do not, but they all now have overcards to your pair. Further, you are going to have to act in front of seat 6. (Which is good, because you would be in really bad shape if you didn't [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]). We are now trying to thin a field where we hold a really good chance of being beaten. When he chooses to raise you here, I think I am done with it. I am not sure I would have bet it, anyway.

On 6th you catch a really nice card. Not only do you know that there is barely anything he can hold that you do not beat, but you have him scared after your check/raise. From here on it's obvious, but really: I would complete 3rd, bet 4th and probably check/fold or bet/fold 5th. (I am not sure check/folding 5th is a good play, I am just saying that I would probably do it.)

If you don't agree, please tell me why. Thank you. If it's not logically consistent, that's because it got long and these edit boxes are really small - so, just go with the general flow.

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I would complete right away on third. Jacks get overtaken way to often to not get aggressive and attempt to knock some people out right away. The limp re-reraise just serves to tie too many people on here. It also puts you in a tougher spot on fourth. People are much more likely to call a bet on fourth, given the investment they have made on third. Nevertheless, I would bet it anyway to see if I could get rid of at least one player. Maybe (but not likely) you get raised right away to thin the field further. I really don't like heading into fifth with a five way pot, holding just a pair of jacks.

[mscags]

Beer,
I think you def need to complete this on third and try to get it heads up. I like limp reraising once in a while but only with big hands that play well multi way. Split Jacks is not one of those hands. Complete it and hopefully you'll get it heads up with someone.

Mike

Slow playing in stud is gengeraly not the optimal way to play the game. It is too easy for the underdog to catch up in stud. A pair of jacks is not best suited for multiplay unlike a flush draw. My guess is that you are raising most of your flush draws and limping with your high pairs, and if that is the case, you need to look into the mirror and see things in reverse. pairs - shorthanded, draws - multiway.

The outcome of this hand is of no relevance. It is actually detrimental, I think, as it reinforces a losing strategy.

This hand was not played wisely. It's not about winning the biggest pots. It's about winning the most bets over a session. And playing this way will take away many of your winning bets.

[Andy B]

I don't think that I exaggerate when I say all pairs, be they (A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or (72)2r, play better heads-up than multi-way. When you start with one pair, an annoying percentage of the time you are going to wind up with only that pair or two pair. Two pair, especially Jacks-up, just isn't going to win that often in a five-way pot. So there are basically two ways to play a pair:

1) Raise and thin the field. This is the default play with a big pair.

2) Limp and hope you get lucky. This is the default play with a small pair if you choose to play it.

By limp/re-raising with this cheese-ball, you have created a big pot that probably won't be won by Jacks-up or even Kings-up. Everyone is now tied on, including you. The other players will probably keep calling, which may be a mistake on their part but will give them every opportunity to beat you. Meanwhile, even if things get a little ugly, you'll probably be forced to stick with this hand even when you don't want to anymore.

I don't get the check on fourth. I want to give these folks every opportunity to fold. True, they probably aren't folding on fourth, but they might fold on fifth. If you check now, they will probably be more inclined to call you on fifth. While the 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] may well have a four-flush, it's not like he has to have that, and I think you probably still have more than 20% pot equity in any case.

The check-raise on sixth strikes me as a tad aggressive, but I won't argue about it much.

I think maybe you should take a month off from this whole limp/re-raise thing and see what that does for you. If you're rolled or have (A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and can't help yourself, that's one thing, but maybe lay off on the pairs and mediocre three-flushes.

[BeerMoney]

My kings up took it down, opponent showed tens and nines.

[frappeboy]

Beer, Where do I start??? Limp raising here shouldn't even cross your mind!! Once the 4 completes and 3 callers in front of you now the hand is just a call, because when a small card completes his most likely hand here is a big pair better than jacks.

4th Street you probably should bet and hope the guy with the 4 raises to thin the field.

5th street is an odd bet, now I think i'd prefer to check, jacks just aren't that great right now with so many players.

I like 6th good check raise. The river is also fine.