I'm back - 88 in the BB

[jba]

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man you need work on your table selection, i just sat at one of your tables thinkin you'd found some fish, boy was I wrong

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Agreed, for tonight anyway. Seemed like any time I found a table it dried up. Called it a night early because I was getting frustrated finding some good tables. That, and getting donk bet/3bet on by a turned flush draw only to hit on the river.

Has anyone else noticed that the games really aren't that juicy lately on a super late Saturday night? I'm finding my favorite loose-passives to be on a bit earlier.

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wow dude I was 4tabling 50+ vpip tables when I sat down with you

[Victor]

i likey.

btw, i noticed you were scurred of me today [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Victor]

after reading the responses i have to say i dont like capping pf. i seem to remember this sort of hand coming up a couple times. most posters always say they would cap pf.

its so much easier to play if you dont. this pot is already quite large and will get larger no matter what. it will be, imo, large enough that we want to give ourselves the most chance to win it. the best way is to maintain our position relative the raiser.

equity schmquity. we are against at least 2 combined overcards here like 90% of the time and probably 4 overcards like 30% of the time (i have no evidence for this). gimme 1010 and i cap. 99 is close.

by capping we effectively turn the lights off and look for our 14th beer.

[jba]

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by capping we effectively turn the lights off and look for our 14th beer.

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sounds nice actually


Seriously though good post. I'm the only one that came close to advocating capping preflop in this thread, but I really wasn't. I think my point was really that there are a lot of opponents that will fold many hands to the cap in the case of the button. I mean if you are button and you come crashing in with K9o and you see reraise/reraise you're mucking all day against hero. there is a lot of value in taking those four overcards you mentioned and make them only two. not against this guy though, exactly like you said in your post.

[JrJordan]

Okay, just so I got this straight: This hand g00t, but overcall by table selection sucks and I fold like a b*tch. I'll work on the latter two.

[cartman]

I understand your reasoning, but I still raise the flop. I don't care much what Button has, but I care alot what SB has. Raising the flop is the most affordable way to find out in my opinion.

Although your way conveys more strength, you commit 5 small bets postflop before you get any feedback. It may cost me 4 small bets, but I may also get away for 2 small bets and I don't think your line cause SB to fold many more hands than mine does although it may cause button to fold the turn more than mine.

If SB is in fact solid I don't think he can call my flop raise and a river bet without a K or a good draw. If he 3-bets the flop or donks the turn I fold immediately. If he check calls the turn I check behind him on the river. If I get heads up with Button, great. I am showing it down then.

Cartman

[KDawgCometh]

I just noticed that you were up against the tag on the river and not the dude on tilt, nm about the value bet idea

[JrJordan]

Not a bad idea. A few things that make me question it though. If I raise, button cold calls, and SB 3-bets, then I think I have to call one more for my 2outer and fold the turn UI. On the flip side, if I raise, button folds, and SB 3bets, can I really fold HU like this for one more? When I'm playing well the answer could be yes, but this guy was tricky enough that when I fold to the 3-bet I still don't feel good about it.

One last question with this, suppose I raise button cold calls and SB calls. Turn rag I bet, both call. What's my river line here? I'd assume I'm looking to check and hope button checks through as well. If he bets though and SB calls as well, I think it's a fold for me. Not sure what my point is with this, just analyzing the tougher scenarious raising this flop will have to face in order to make it a more +EV move.

[cartman]

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Not a bad idea. A few things that make me question it though. If I raise, button cold calls, and SB 3-bets, then I think I have to call one more for my 2outer and fold the turn UI

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I agree.

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On the flip side, if I raise, button folds, and SB 3bets, can I really fold HU like this for one more? When I'm playing well the answer could be yes, but this guy was tricky enough that when I fold to the 3-bet I still don't feel good about it.

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I can easily fold for one more. Here is my assessment of the communication between us so far this hand:

SB 3-bets preflop: "I have a some showdown value"
You call two in the BB: "I have a hand too"
(SB's flop bet says nothing)
You raise the flop: "Look, I know damn well you may have a K and I don't care"
SB 3-bets: "I know you know damn well I may have a K and that you like your hand well enough to raise anyway and I don't give a rat's ass because I do have at least a K and I probably have you outkicked if we both have one!"

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One last question with this, suppose I raise button cold calls and SB calls. Turn rag I bet, both call. What's my river line here? I'd assume I'm looking to check and hope button checks through as well. If he bets though and SB calls as well, I think it's a fold for me.

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Under normal circumstances I think this is the only river plan. But given button's state of mind, I can certainly see him betting with a worse hand and when we check the river I can see SB calling with something as weak as a good Ace. I'm sure your judgment of the situation would be better than mine because you were the one playing with them, but by my estimate the pot would be about 12.5 BB when it came back to me on the river. I would think your hand would be good the required 7.4% of the time required to make the crying call.

[Xhiggy]

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We'd like to get to showdown as cheaply and safely as possible in this hand, not pump the pot.

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A Kxx flop is very good for your hand given the betting so far. You want to be putting in as much money when you're ahead, and raising the flop not only does that, but also (given the presence of the button likely cold-calling), allows you to cheaply get away when you're behind.

If the button is very likely to fold your flop raise, then you should definitely be capping PF.

I see no problem with taking the initiative going into the turn. You're not looking nor expecting to gain folding equity, you're simply trying to get more money in while ahead. You're very unlikely to be bluffed off of this hand.
I take back my suggestion of betting the river (if you raised the flop and bet the turn). However, a lot does depend on how the SB plays postflop, and surely having the option of value-betting the river or checking-behind is a lot in itself.

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The question is did I play my hand perfectly, not the button.

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The way you played the hand, you get less money from the button when he misses, and lose the same when he hits. You've allowed the button to see a flop and turn for only 1SB each. You can make the button make more mistakes (while still putting in almost the same amount of money by the turn) by raising the flop.