vulnerable hand: wait for the turn?

surfdoc · #1 10-03-2005, 01:30 PM

I game select goot. utg is a huge donk on a good run. He is 62/10/1. BB is also very bad at 43/3/1.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.70 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, Hero raises

me454555 · #2 10-03-2005, 03:39 PM

Looks good. You can't protect your hand on the flop so why not wait for the turn

Derek in NYC · #3 10-03-2005, 04:07 PM

Raise the flop for value. There is no guarantee you will get the opportunity to raise on 4th street.

EDIT: It occured to me that your understanding of the "wait until 4th street to raise a vulnerable hand" concept is somewhat confused. The rule applies particularly in large pots with people to act behind you. It is not, strictly speaking, just a value raise (although the way you implemented it, it was). It is a value/protection raise.

The problem with "waiting until 4th street to raise for value only"--without regard to the notion of protecting your hand--is that you have no guarantee that villain will bet into you again and give you the opportunity to raise. Thus, in a situation where you can't "protect" your hand anyhow, all you do by waiting is give up value you could have had by raising on the flop.

PokerBob · #4 10-03-2005, 04:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I game select goot. utg is a huge donk on a good run. He is 62/10/1. BB is also very bad at 43/3/1.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.70 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, Hero raises

[/ QUOTE ]

 given your position, you cannot protect your hand on any street, so why not pop the flop when you likely are ahead? also, if a paint card falls, it may freeze up the initial bettor.

GetThere1Time · #5 10-03-2005, 04:14 PM

I like it if he's fairly aggressive. Are these guys gonna freeze up if a broadway hits the turn? If so I probably just raise the flop to guarantee the money gets in there.

Schneids · #6 10-03-2005, 04:26 PM

Pop the flop he might three bet, when you just call if he's thinking at all he thinks you probably have overcards, so, he may check a "scary" turn and you lose that value.

StellarWind · #7 10-03-2005, 04:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop for value. There is no guarantee you will get the opportunity to raise on 4th street.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hero needs to read BB and make a decision. If BB is going to autobet until he meets opposition then OP played it just right. If BB is going to check a lot of hands then Hero is leaving money on the table by not raising.

[ QUOTE ]
It occured to me that your understanding of the "wait until 4th street to raise a vulnerable hand" concept is somewhat confused.

[/ QUOTE ]
There are several different ideas behind "waiting-for-the-turn" and this hand illustrates one of them: getting paid. Other hands are more oriented toward protection or wanting to see the turn card before committing.

Two more considerations, one for raising and one for calling:

1. This may be your last chance to get paid by UTG. The more multiway the pot is the more you should be inclined to immediately raise and soak the one-and-done weak draws. [Remember we are discussing the getting-paid type of wait-for-the-turn play.]

2. Calling the flop from the button provides better control. It's much better to see that the turn is already two bets before you act then to walk into a checkraise.

irishpint · #8 10-03-2005, 05:20 PM

i'm raising the flop for value since we're ahead here. the 6 of clubs isn't a great turn card for us- in fact there aren't too many we WANT to see (no overs, no straight cards). BB may not even bet the turn and then we missed out on money when we were ahead.

Moozh · #9 10-03-2005, 05:24 PM

This looks fine to me. I usually alternate between a flop raise and a turn raise. The thing that makes turn raises so appealing in this game is that everyone seems to pay them off all the way to the river.

If you get 3-bet (which is unlikely considering the board), I'm not sure what I'd do. With players like UTG and BB, you're very likely behind. Thus, I might suggest calling to see a paired board and only calling the river if you get one (or another ten or a seven).

Justin A · #10 10-03-2005, 05:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Pop the flop he might three bet, when you just call if he's thinking at all he thinks you probably have overcards, so, he may check a "scary" turn and you lose that value.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. There's a place for waiting until the turn to raise for value but it's usually in bigger pots with more opponents, when your flop edge is likely not very strong. In this case, your flop edge is likely very very strong and you're missing bets by not raising.