Preflop with AK at final table in PS 20 table SNG - Page 2

Mez · #1 11-30-2005, 03:32 PM

I like a push here, I like it more if you can get the big stack to fold. Then you're getting 3:1 to take AK into a 3 way race.

"I really deabted just calling, but decided against it because I didn't trust MP1 to check it down; he didn't seem smart enough to do so"

I don't agree with this line of thinking. You don't want to check it down. You want to maximize your odds of winning this hand. Assume you call, he has KQ and you both flop nothing. He pushes allin and you fold - this may seem like a bad play but it increases his chances of winning the pot tremendously, so its correct for him.

Calling here is very bad. I don't like folding either, I would push here a lot, and more if the big stack is probably going to laydown.

<fyi this was in reply to moldman>

stone_7 · #2 11-30-2005, 02:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's a close call between raising it to 25,000 or moving in. Moving in often will maximize your FE, but the one downside is that many players will simply assume you have AK and look you up with something like a mid. PP - and they would be correct to do so given the dead money. The raise to 25,000 makes it far more likely, to some, that you have a hand like AA-QQ. Given your stack size, it also means that you can be forced out of the pot on the flop since you will be moving all-in no matter what falls.

My decision would be based on whether the 25,000 chip raise will be perceived as more threatening. I don't like calling here because the chances that all will fold are too great and you'll scoop a really nice pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

huh???
Look at the chip stacks:
UTG (t6335)
UTG+1 (t7696)

UTG is all in and UTG+1 is getting obscene odds on calling for his last 1500 chips, furthermore if you don't raise preflop these chips are going in on the flop regardless. UTG+1 can't even post the full BB if he folds. Neither of them is folding this hand PERIOD.

Therefore the question is do you want to play this by yourself vs 2 opps or have some help. If you raise any amount I think you will fold everyone who has 2 brain cells that has not acted yet. Even AA vs 3 opponents is not a lock hand and losing will cripple the big stack. If you call the big stack should call with almost any 2 (he is gettign 5:1 on his money with 5k to call into a 25k pot) and should check it down to the end. IMHO this is the result that you want. By eliminating 2 players you move up from $90 to $180 (correct me if I am wrong on the amounts the concept will still hold true). By inviting the big stack into the hand you do reduce your ECV but maximize your E$V. Besides, if you call you should feel comfortable playing this hand postflop if the big stack decides to make a play for the pot because you will have position. However, the big stack is making a huge mistake making a play for the pot because even if he chases you out he still must beat the other 2 hands and has 0 FE. In addition he will be putting chips at risk into a side pot that currently has no other chips in it. By the same token you should be prepared to check it down even if you flop TPTK because combined you have more outs if you are behind. This form of collusion is very important in the last table of tourneys especially at the end as you are trying to move up and the dollar amounts increase very rapidly.

Given that the right move is obviously to call and check it through then I think any discussion of what UTG and UTG+1 have is irrelevant but for my money I expect them to make this move with any ace, PP, or even suited king. I had a similar hand last night and I ended up calling with A J vs k 5 and 4 4. I suspect he is in a similar situation here.

#3 11-30-2005, 02:29 PM

mknoll: pretty accurate call on your part. I really deabted just calling, but decided against it because I didn't trust MP1 to check it down; he didn't seem smart enough to do so. Taking that into consideration, I figured UTG had a pair or any A and that UTG+1 could have almost anything, in which case I definitely likely my chances, particularly for only 6k. My biggest goal when deciding what to do was wanting to have enough chips to be able to play back at MP1 just once, so I thought pushing gave me a chance to accumulate a ton of chips if MP1 called and I won a coin flip (I was due to win one anyway.). Furthermore, I still stand to amass quite a nice stack if MP1 folds and I knock out the other 2, at least enough to put some fear into MP1 and make him think twice about playing at me.

gergery · #4 11-30-2005, 06:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Given that the right move is obviously to call and check it through then I think any discussion of what UTG and UTG+1 have is irrelevant but for my money I expect them to make this move with any ace, PP, or even suited king. I had a similar hand last night and I ended up calling with A J vs k 5 and 4 4. I suspect he is in a similar situation here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate calling and checking it down. I want those chips and a significantly increased chance at 1st. I push

-g

jon_1van · #5 11-30-2005, 03:43 PM

You have 2 options.

1. Push (or make an obvious "I'm commited" raise)

2. Call and hope to hit an A or K (trying to build a side pot if you hit it) . Here you have to be willing to take a 8k hit to your 40k stack and fold to a crappy flop.

If I thought the big stack was capable of calling light I'd try to take him off of his hand. I don't want a hand like 88 calling here. It is possible/likely that at least 1 of your Aces is dead. So you don't want a hand like 88 to see a flop if its less likely he'll have to deal with overcards.

kuro · #6 11-30-2005, 05:14 PM

This is a clear push. You've got a fantastic starting hand, and there are two desperate short stacks pushing and dead money from the blinds and a caller. Sorry it didn't work out.

#7 11-30-2005, 05:26 PM

Actually, it did work out, at least this hand - just in an ugly way, but I still got what I wanted. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't getting carried away with the push.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t2000 (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

CO (t10775)
Button (t61216)
SB (t22570)
BB (t13329)
UTG (t6335)
UTG+1 (t7696)
MP1 (t107549)
Hero (t40530)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG raises to t6235, UTG+1 calls t6235, MP1 calls t6235, Hero raises to t40430, 4 folds, UTG+1 calls t1361 (All-In), MP1 folds.

Flop: (t61096) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t61096) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t61096) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t61096

Results in white below: 
UTG has 3c 3d (flush, eight high).
UTG+1 has Qc Kd (flush, queen high).
Hero has Kc Ad (flush, king high).
Outcome: Hero wins t61096.

Dave D · #8 11-30-2005, 06:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Haven't played many MTT, mainly 2 table SNGs, but have been giving these 20 table deals a shot. Played in like 15, with a couple ITMs, but no final tables. Last night, the poker gods were good early and I doubled up twice on first orbit.

Down to final table with big stack LAG to my right. Everyone else seems pretty tight. What is my move here preflop?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t2000 (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

CO (t10775)
Button (t61216)
SB (t22570)
BB (t13329)
UTG (t6335)
UTG+1 (t7696)
MP1 (t107549)
Hero (t40530)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG raises to t6235, UTG+1 calls t6235, MP1 calls t6235, Hero ????

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a rare situation where you can easily fold AK IMHO. You've got 3 other people in the hand, AK does not do well against at least 3 other people, even if they don't have AA/KK, or even QQ/JJ/TT that you're not in great shape against. Probably one person is going to get knocked out (or close to it), and a good chance another will amost get knocked out. 10k stack could lose a lot here. Bump yourself up effectivly two spots and fold.

I'd call with AA and KK here, QQ I think I can fold.

edit: I misread your stack. I'd have just called and hoped to check it down with 10k. You want to maximize your chances of knocking out as many people as possible here, b/c the money jumps (presumably) are steep. I think you got semi lucky that one of them didnt have a high pair, and I think you need to be maximizing your chances of AA/KK getting sucked out on.

ansky451 · #9 11-30-2005, 06:39 PM

I can't believe what I'm reading. The UTG+1's call is meaningless, he has no chips either.

The MP big stacks call is not scary at all. He would raise with a premium hand.

This is an insta push. You have so much equity here, its absurd.