Importance of early level play in an SNG

[eastbay]

$109

eastbay

[minwoo]

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$109

eastbay

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Darn. I was getting ready to move up to the 109s too. Guess I should bring up my BR a bit more.

I don't completely abandon all play in early levels (ie post/fold). I just tend to avoid gambles with AK preflop and if I'm unsure about a hand postflop and I'm not short-stacked, then I can let it go. Of course, if I have any kind of read against an opponent, I will play accordingly.

To be honest, I'm actually kind of happy to hear that early play becomes important at 109s and up. These days it feels like a total crapshoot when bubble time comes around. I would like to know that skilled play is involved in winning an SNG. But on the other hand, maybe I suck at post flop play and i'll have to go back to push-botting at the 22s.

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Can I ask if by 4 table you mean 4 tourneys at one time, at the 55 dollar level?
If this is so, how is your ROI doing this

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I'm 4-tabling the 55s (4 tourneys at once) w/ a 5.5k bankroll. I've been pretty much breaking even for last the two months at the 55s.

[ilya]

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I'm 4-tabling the 55s (4 tourneys at once) w/ a 5.5k bankroll. I've been pretty much breaking even for last the two months at the 55s.

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Your basis for claiming that post-flop play isn't important at the $55s is that...you're breaking even?!

[Mr_J]

"I can confidently say that early play just isn't that important at the 55s and below."

You can get a decent ROI without it, but you can get a great ROI with it. There's just so much dead money early on it's a bit silly not to take advantage of it (if your goal is to maximise profit).

[minwoo]

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Your basis for claiming that post-flop play isn't important at the $55s is that...you're breaking even?!

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Like I said, I don't completely neglect postflop play in the early levels. I just don't take unnecessary risks when I still have chips to push-bot at the later levels.

And as far as breaking even goes...remember that little thing called VARIANCE? Hey, at least I haven't been suffering a loss [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[ilya]

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Your basis for claiming that post-flop play isn't important at the $55s is that...you're breaking even?!

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Like I said, I don't completely neglect postflop play in the early levels. I just don't take unnecessary risks when I still have chips to push-bot at the later levels.

And as far as breaking even goes...remember that little thing called VARIANCE? Hey, at least I haven't been suffering a loss [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

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Well, taking unnecessary risks is a bad idea pretty much by definition. So I guess I'm not sure what you mean, exactly.

Sure I remember variance, but you said that you've been breaking even for two months. To me that implies quite a lot of tournaments...if you're breaking even over 1000, it seems much more likely to me that you're a break-even player than that you're a 20% player, variance or no variance.

[Nicholasp27]

well if u look at icm:
(10/1 used for dollar amounts)

on hand 1, your ev is $10
after 3 levels, your stack is down to 655 and there are about 7 people left and your ev is down to $9

as levels go on and you keep getting blinded, your ev goes down and down

so being able to get some chips early on certainly will help...but the key is to not gamble your whole stack on coin flips and such, as winning won't help your ev that much and losing takes it to zero, and you supposedly are ok being shorter stacked when blinds rise due to your expert pushbot strategy

I would be fascinated to hear what "early level play" we are talking about here?

I essentially toss everything other than 22+ or AQ+ in Levels 1 through 3, depending on the usual things like position, stacks, etc. 22-99 I play for set value, limping, folding to anything other than a re-raise, and folding the flop if it doesn't hit or isn't over top pair. TT and JJ I play for more than set value, but very carefully and cautiously. QQ-AA I play aggressively and am willing to bust out with these hands early, depending on flop. AQ I'm very careful with, often folding pre-flop. AK lately I have been pushing with any significant pot to get pre-flop. If not, 3xBB raise w/ c-bet and throw away thereafter.

Is this considered "early level play"? Or, is this standard SNG super tight play? What areas should I look at expanding into? Should I think about making plays in LP, say at Level 2 where I can pickup 45 chips? I've been thinking about blind stealing on the button figuring it has to be +EV w/ all the fish at the $10s given my position and (likely) post-flop advantage in skill.


Would love to hear any thoughts.

[Kama45]

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I would be fascinated to hear what "early level play" we are talking about here?

I essentially toss everything other than 22+ or AQ+ in Levels 1 through 3, depending on the usual things like position, stacks, etc. 22-99 I play for set value, limping, folding to anything other than a re-raise, and folding the flop if it doesn't hit or isn't over top pair. TT and JJ I play for more than set value, but very carefully and cautiously. QQ-AA I play aggressively and am willing to bust out with these hands early, depending on flop. AQ I'm very careful with, often folding pre-flop. AK lately I have been pushing with any significant pot to get pre-flop. If not, 3xBB raise w/ c-bet and throw away thereafter.

Is this considered "early level play"? Or, is this standard SNG super tight play? What areas should I look at expanding into? Should I think about making plays in LP, say at Level 2 where I can pickup 45 chips? I've been thinking about blind stealing on the button figuring it has to be +EV w/ all the fish at the $10s given my position and (likely) post-flop advantage in skill.


Would love to hear any thoughts.

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I have the same question.

[mlagoo]

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Should I think about making plays in LP, say at Level 2 where I can pickup 45 chips? I've been thinking about blind stealing on the button figuring it has to be +EV w/ all the fish at the $10s given my position and (likely) post-flop advantage in skill.


Would love to hear any thoughts.

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I know that, as a rule, I don't blind steal until at earliest the 3rd level, often the 4th level. I think the chips that you pick up are not worth the metagame damage you are doing to yourself, as far as stealing blinds further down the road goes.


As for earlier level play... I think it has to do with playing more hands in position (AJ, AT, KQ, KJ, suited connectors), looking to either find a flop you hit hard or find a flop no one else hit at all.

I don't know. I am just a middling, cashout happy 11/22s player. I know that I really enjoy playing these types of hands early (in position) because I like to play a little bit of poker, and I *think* whatever hit my ROI takes from it (and I admit, it likely takes a slight hit -- I'm not that good yet) is more than made up for by hopefully learning to play postflop a bit. Not to mention the fact that, since its the 11s/22s, your ROI can take a nice hit and still do ok =).