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  #21  
Old 12-27-2005, 01:08 AM
Lloyd Lloyd is offline
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Default Re: Coach Reviews in Strategy Forums

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they could come with a disclaimer, added by the poster or edited in by the mod, that states this is the opinion of the reviewer and not 2p2.


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I think this solves the problem. If the poster does not say something like this, then the moderator could do it. With this statement plus my other comments about keeping the review non-commercial, I think it can run.

Thanks everyone,

Mason

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As for the disclaimer I don't see how that's necesary. If someone makes a post where they suggest some particular betting line on a hand does that somehow confuse people into thinking it's the official suggested line from 2+2? How is this any different. I could see how that would be important in a stickied post or even a post made by one of us, but does the disclaimer really need to be applied to every post? How would a coach review be different from say the Kill Phil review thread in books/publications?

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I agree with you 100%. All posts are the opinion of the poster unless otherwise stated. The only reason we use disclaimers on certain posts are because they are stickied and/or perhaps include the 2+2 name (like some of the forum tournies). If a disclaimer is included on any post, what does it mean when a disclaimer is NOT included? That the post IS endorsed by 2+2?

As for not including things like his hoursly rate, meh. I don't think it's a big deal and if somebody searched the archives they'd fine it.

The best way of dealing with both of these issues is to simply have people respond (including Mason) and address them. Point out perhaps where his advice is not necessarily correct, say that we he charges sounds great but in fact you really don't get much more than reviews of hands. This really isn't that big of a deal.
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  #22  
Old 12-27-2005, 03:02 AM
StellarWind StellarWind is offline
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Default Re: Coach Reviews in Strategy Forums

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we also have problems with his limit hold 'em advice. On Two Plus Two we should be steering our readers towards good information and away from questionable information, and based on their book Middle Limit Hold'em by Ciaffone and Brier, I don't feel comfortable in doing anything that may encourage someone to take lessons that in the long run might prove costly to them. So I think it's best we tell the poster that we feel this is a little too close to violating our rule of no advertising in a post.

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Surely we don't want to censor good-faith posters because we fear they will give bad advice that could cost readers money? You might have to shut down the forums if you institute that policy.

A review is just another post unless you choose to make it something more. No one is going to think it is anything other than the personal opinion of one of Bob's students.
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  #23  
Old 12-27-2005, 09:09 PM
QTip QTip is offline
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Default Re: Coach Reviews in Strategy Forums

WD:

The poster is Flair1239, and I'm sure he wouldn't mind me mentioning that here. He's been respected and respectful in the forums to the best of my knowledge.

I actually forgot about this post for a couple days and came back here tonight expecting to find it on page 2 with 1 response.

Am I to understand that a consensus has not been reached?

Thanks,

QTip
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  #24  
Old 12-27-2005, 09:40 PM
Lloyd Lloyd is offline
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Default Re: Coach Reviews in Strategy Forums

As it stands now, the post is allowed as long as it's not a glaring advertisement and is unbiased (meaning pros/cons). In addition, it would need some sort of disclaimer that it's not an official 2+2 review. Several of us have voiced our concern with that type of disclaimer and hope that Mason will reverse that decision. If he's pressing to make a post now I'd send Mason a PM, ask him to review the thread again, and make a final decision.
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  #25  
Old 12-28-2005, 12:41 AM
W. Deranged W. Deranged is offline
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Default Re: Coach Reviews in Strategy Forums

Q,

I personally would be interested in Flair's review though I certainly agree that it would need a disclaimer re: Ciaffone's LHE advice.

Flair's a great contributor to the forum and I think his comments on the value of coaching in general would be a valuable contribution to the forum.
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  #26  
Old 12-28-2005, 04:27 AM
jdl22 jdl22 is offline
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Default Re: Coach Reviews in Strategy Forums

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Q,

I personally would be interested in Flair's review though I certainly agree that it would need a disclaimer re: Ciaffone's LHE advice.

Flair's a great contributor to the forum and I think his comments on the value of coaching in general would be a valuable contribution to the forum.

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Can you explain why you think it needs a disclaimer when this thread doesn't. While that isn't about Ciaffone, no posts in this thread have the disclaimer. Mason's reponse to Bobbyi makes it pretty clear that his post does not give the official 2+2 view.

Furthermore is this post giving the official strategy of 2+2 publishing for how to play AQs when the flop is A48r, turn is J completing rainbow, river is T, one opponent is a total lag and the other is a tag that drops out after the flop gets raised? It doesn't have a disclaimer and the idiot making the post is even a mod.

I have no clue why this post, or any other, should get a disclaimer. The situation is extremely similar to reviews of books in the book forum. Those never have had a disclaimer as far as I know. Strategy posts don't have a disclaimer. Articles published in the magazine have no such discliamer. Putting it into just this one post makes no sense.

If it is necesary for this post please explain why it isn't necesary in the examples cited above.
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  #27  
Old 12-28-2005, 10:14 AM
Mason Malmuth Mason Malmuth is offline
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Default Re: Coach Reviews in Strategy Forums

Hi JaredL:

The reason I feel it needs a disclaimer is that Ciaffone isn't just a typical person. He comes under our policy of holding authors to a higher standard. So I feel the review can be posted but we do need a polite disclaimer.

Best wishes,
Mason
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  #28  
Old 12-29-2005, 03:34 AM
jdl22 jdl22 is offline
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Default Re: Coach Reviews in Strategy Forums

Mason,

I agree with your position that authors should be held to a higher standard. That's fair enough, I just wonder what people will think when the post has a disclaimer attached, and others such as the examples I've given above don't. While there could be legal ramifications I'm not aware of, I don't see why a poster reading a review of a book or a coach would misconstrue it as your company supporting this person (or being against in the case of a bad review). People reading the review will get to the disclaimer and wonder why it's there. My guess is that the thread would then either get fully derailed or at least split into some sort of two threaded monster with one discussing the actual value of Ciaffone's coaching/coaching in general and the other discussing why the disclaimer's there and whether you treat "your competition" unfairly. If this were to happen we would have a thread go from being hugely beneficial to simply making everyone frustrated. In this scenario it's also not likely that you would come out looking like the good guy, despite being well intentioned.

Based on little I know of Ciaffone's limit advice I agree with your position. I haven't read his books but from hearing and reading about various examples of hands where his advice is clearly too weak-tight your view seems to be correct. While I can see why you would want a disclaimer, for the reasons mentioned above I think it would be best if it were left out and you responded to the post saying that you think his limit advice is often bad but his NL and legal advice is good. (on a sidenote, his discussion of rules seems interesting as well I'm curious what you think on that) That would get your view out there, make it very clear that the review isn't giving the official 2+2 publishing opinion, and would be much less likely (though still not probability zero) to end in a flame war. Hopefully, no matter your decision such a problem doesn't develop.

By the way, after all of this disclaimer discussion I skimmed the pages of the magazine looking for such a disclaimer and didn't find one. Shouldn't there be one? I'm being 100% serious here, this is in no way a continuation of the argument above. I would assume that the magazine is something like the editorial page of the newspaper where you accept and publish writings even if you disagree with the view given therein, assuming they are well thought out and written reasonably. Most (all?) newspapers have a similar disclaimer, and this would seem necesary in your case as well, especially since there usually are 1 or 2 controversial articles every month.

Your humble servant,

Jared
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  #29  
Old 12-29-2005, 02:29 PM
Greg J Greg J is offline
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Default Re: Coach Reviews in Strategy Forums

Lloyd, I just don't get this:

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My guess is that the thread would then either get fully derailed or at least split into some sort of two threaded monster with one discussing the actual value of Ciaffone's coaching/coaching in general and the other discussing why the disclaimer's there and whether you treat "your competition" unfairly.

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I really don't see why you think this would happen.

At worst a disclaimer makes the review a little redundant.
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  #30  
Old 12-29-2005, 02:44 PM
Lloyd Lloyd is offline
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Default Re: Coach Reviews in Strategy Forums

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Lloyd, I just don't get this:

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My guess is that the thread would then either get fully derailed or at least split into some sort of two threaded monster with one discussing the actual value of Ciaffone's coaching/coaching in general and the other discussing why the disclaimer's there and whether you treat "your competition" unfairly.

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I really don't see why you think this would happen.

At worst a disclaimer makes the review a little redundant.

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You're quoting the wrong guy.
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