7CS: Reese versus SM&Z: Tens and Jacks - Page 2

pianist · #11 07-18-2004, 01:50 AM

It's usually right to call. The odds are against the overcards having higher pairs. However, there's enough of chance of your being second or (rarely) third-best that you should just call and see what happens. Even if you have second pair, you are only about a 2-1 dog heads-up against the bigger pair, so if you just limp you are getting the right pot odds to call if someone completes the bet behind you.

Folding with a live hand is probably wrong except in tight games with small antes, because too often you will be folding the money favorite or a second-best hand that is getting correct odds to continue playing.

7stud · #12 07-18-2004, 11:06 PM

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Even if you have second pair, you are only about a 2-1 dog heads-up against the bigger pair, so if you just limp you are getting the right pot odds to call if someone completes the bet behind you.

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How do you figure that?

In an 8 handed 15-30 game, you would be getting about 1.3 to 1.

pianist · #13 07-19-2004, 12:16 PM

You're going to have to post your math, because that's not what I get.

According to my calculations, in an 8-handed 15-30 game, you're getting no worse than 4.1:1 to call the completion.

$16 antes + $5 bring-in + your $5 call + $15 completion = $41. Your cost of calling the completion is $10. So you'd be getting 4.1:1 if there's a completion-raise behind you and no one else calls it, a little less if there's a rake.

To call the bring-in, you're getting no worse than (16+5):5 = 21:5 = 4.2:1.

Maybe you're talking about raising the bring-in. That would be about 1.3:1 (21:15). But if you read my original post carefully, I said you should call, not raise.

7stud · #14 07-19-2004, 01:39 PM

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$16 antes + $5 bring-in + your $5 call + $15 completion = $41.

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Yep.

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Your cost of calling the completion is $10. So you'd be getting 4.1:1 if there's a completion-raise behind you and no one else calls it.

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Does the showdown occur after you call the $10 completion?

Al Mirpuri · #15 07-20-2004, 06:05 AM

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$16 antes + $5 bring-in + your $5 call + $15 completion = $41.

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Yep.

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Your cost of calling the completion is $10. So you'd be getting 4.1:1 if there's a completion-raise behind you and no one else calls it.

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Does the showdown occur after you call the $10 completion?

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No showdown on 4th street but you do get another upcard and this means you get to reassess the situation.

Al Mirpuri · #16 07-20-2004, 06:07 AM

Tens and Jacks seem to worth a raise against timid, predictable opponents but a call/fold against tricky, strong players.

berya · #17 07-20-2004, 05:32 PM

It's been a really long while since I read SuperSystem. But wasn't Reese's model 10-20 with a $3 ante or something (not $3 bring but an ante).

Andy B · #18 07-20-2004, 09:06 PM

No, $10/20 has been played with a $1 ante and a $3 bring-in for a long time, and that was the model Reese used. If the ante were $3, folding Tens or Jacks without an excellent reason would be very wrong.

7stud · #19 07-21-2004, 03:02 AM

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No showdown on 4th street but you do get another upcard and this means you get to reassess the situation.

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So, it is irrelevant to your decision to call whether there are no more betting rounds or there are 4 more betting rounds?

Al Mirpuri · #20 07-21-2004, 07:31 AM

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No showdown on 4th street but you do get another upcard and this means you get to reassess the situation.

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So, it is irrelevant to your decision to call whether there are no more betting rounds or there are 4 more betting rounds?

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I am not sure I know what you mean.

My understanding is that if you are getting pot odds for one bet then make it even if you will have to fold the majority of the time that you see the next card. If there is a flaw in my reasoning, I am sure you will point it out.