Totally lost - QQ Party 30/60

[Easystreet]

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this issue confuses me a bit as well (and i think a lot of people), after reading miller's chapter in sshe, which discusses waiting till the turn to raise.

could someone please explain why this situation is not close? what makes this situation so clearly different than the one in miller's book? the pot is large in both, bet will not protect your hand, etc. what conditions are determinative in deciding when to raise?

thanks

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OK I will have a go at answering this one. I assume you are talking about the protecting your hand chapter page 163 When the Pot is Extremely Large.

In Millers example when hero had KK you can be fairly sure that the pf capper and flop bettor who is on your immediate right is going to bet the turn. This will allow you on the turn to face the rest of the field with calling two cold.

Now in this particular example (hero has QQ) it is highly unlikely that the first bet on the turn is going to come from heros right its almost certainly going to come from MP1 by the time it gets to hero, raising now will only face one player with calling two cold, hence you will not be able to protect your hand.

Turning back to why raising the flop is the correct play, here are some reasons.

1. As just mentioned due to who is likely to bet the turn we can't wait to try to protect our hand with a turn raise because that just wont work.

2. We more than likely currently have the best hand, so if we can't protect our hand by waiting to the turn we should raise our hand for value.

3. If a scare card like an Ace comes on the turn (with all that pf action it's almost certain someone has an ace, and all the players check to you, you can take a free card and hope to spike a queen on the river because that will now be the only way you can win this hand.

[Ed Miller]

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this issue confuses me a bit as well (and i think a lot of people), after reading miller's chapter in sshe, which discusses waiting till the turn to raise.

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By "Miller's chapter in SSHE" are you talking about "Two Overpair Hands"? That's the chapter most relevant to this question. And yes, in this situation I would raise the flop.

[bernie]

This hand plays much easier if you raise the flop. MP3 and CO are saying they missed when they just call MPs flop bet.

Very odd betting patterns...

MP3 and CO both have AK? Not sure what the CO would be folding on this turn that he 3 bet preflop and is now getting about 17-1 to call.

b

[DcifrThs]

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so value simply means putting the money in when you have the best hand, right?

you guys still could have answered his question and explain why it's not close.

this issue confuses me a bit as well (and i think a lot of people), after reading miller's chapter in sshe, which discusses waiting till the turn to raise.

could someone please explain why this situation is not close? what makes this situation so clearly different than the one in miller's book? the pot is large in both, bet will not protect your hand, etc. what conditions are determinative in deciding when to raise?

thanks

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i was putting off reading ed's book ... i finally met him and then read it. its a very very good, well written book. there is just one problem...and it has to do with the reader.

i was fortunate enough to understand all the concepts from previous study, reading and experience. there were a few times where i was reading and thinking, "well, if i had never seen this before, id have a very hard time grasping it immediately." this is not ed's fault clearly. he did a great job being very thurough.

so how does the reader get through the tough parts to understand (or at least be able to identify which parts are crucial and tough)? ed mentions it: reread, reread, and experience.

the main difference here is the lack of massive draws. there only exists a straight draw. further, you are likely to get action from hands like AT-Tx or whatever or hands like JJ if they are out there. it also gives you more information about where you stand and how to play the rest of the hand.

a raise for VALUE here is necessary because there are many WORSE hands that will PUT MONEY IN as a dog to your pair. this means that for every dollar they put in, you are gaining a large % of it.

in words that ed uses, you dont raise this flop because you need to protect your hand...you do so because you have such a large amount of equity that it is required to maximize your EV.

-Barron

[siegfriedandroy]

good explanation, fellas- except for Ed, the author!, who didnt explain why the flop raise is correct! jk I agree that is book is quite good and well written. The new one is good, also- good intro to and finetuning of the basics.

Dcfr- Where do you go to grad school? Im also 25- law student at ucla. peace

[bobdibble]

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good explanation, fellas- except for Ed, the author!, who didnt explain why the flop raise is correct!

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dcifrths explained it.

[DeeJ]

as the man said, <font color="green"> raise the flop</font>.

It does look like he's made his set on the river, or he's got 65 or J9. I'm tempted to fold the river as he's raising into 4 other players and either he's slowplayed a monster (save possibly JJ) or he has had everyone beat since the turn. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

With 5 players in at the river on a semi-coordinated board, you aren't winning the majority of the time.