Again with cold calling small pairs

Spicymoose · #1 11-12-2005, 09:36 PM

Just sat down, so no reads. I was going to bet the turn, and check the river UI.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP raises, 1 fold, Hero calls, 2 folds, UTG calls.

Flop: (7.40 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, MP bets, Hero raises, UTG calls, MP calls.

Turn: (6.70 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, MP bets, Hero folds, UTG calls.

River: (8.70 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, MP checks.

Final Pot: 8.70 BB

scotty34 · #2 11-12-2005, 09:53 PM

I auto-muck these hands preflop. Playing an underpair against 3-4 players in a raised pot seems like one of the last things I would want to do.

Spicymoose · #3 11-12-2005, 09:57 PM

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I auto-muck these hands preflop. Playing an underpair against 3-4 players in a raised pot seems like one of the last things I would want to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

We are getting about 3:1 or 4:1, so we only need to make up around 4 BB when we hit our set. You don't think that happens often enough? Add into it the fact that we do occasionally find other non set flops where we have EV in continuing.

sweetjazz · #4 11-12-2005, 10:36 PM

I don't think you play his hand profitably in the situation unless you have a specific read that one or both opponents regularly get out of line postflop. For one, you are still open to a 3-bet from the blinds, so your odds are not as good as they appear to be. Sets don't win 100% of the time, so you need to be able to extract a little more postflop.

I think it's close, but I don't think 44 is profitable unless you are against opponents who get out of line postflop. I have tried playing in similar situations and have done scratch calculations trying to see how to turn a profit, but haven't been able to figure it out.

Good luck in your search.

Your postflop play looks real good to me.

imported_leader · #5 11-12-2005, 11:01 PM

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You don't think that happens often enough?

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No. 4BB is a lot. Sure it happens, but so does getting 1 BB and 2BB. How many times are you going to get 6 or 7 BB to make up for that? Not nearly often enough.

sthief09 · #6 11-12-2005, 11:24 PM

the turn is a super-tough spot. i think all 3 options are pretty legitimate. you could raise for a free showdown and try to shove utg out but it sucks if utg slowplayed something. you can call to see if utg will raise so you can get out cheap, but then you cant protect your hand. also, this is a bad card since it completed an oesd and gave another oesd top pair. it's hard to expect that both players, utg having called 2 and mp raising preflop and betting twice, to have worse hands. best case they have a lot of outs. so fold is definitely an option.

i have no idea what i think. in my mind all 3 options run very close together. if i was at he table id fold also

and regarding postflop its probably close to neutral. whoever said these hands are easy to play is wrong. this hand is an obvious example of that. the relative position and having no reads might push this to a fold. the flop is standard obviously

sthief09 · #7 11-12-2005, 11:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You don't think that happens often enough?

[/ QUOTE ]
No. 4BB is a lot. Sure it happens, but so does getting 1 BB and 2BB. How many times are you going to get 6 or 7 BB to make up for that? Not nearly often enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

there are also times when the flop comes 776 and you raise the flop getting way the best of it

sweetjazz · #8 11-12-2005, 11:31 PM

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there are also times when the flop comes 776 and you raise the flop getting way the best of it

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How do you get way the best of it against a 9-outer? (Two overcards plus a 6 counterfeits your hand.) The problem with 44 is that usually either your opponents make a small mistake (drawing to a live hand with just barely not enough odds) or we are making a big mistake (drawing to a hand that has nowhere near odds to make it).

That is why, as you say, this is a tough hand to play postflop if the flop doesn't have a 4 or isn't AKQ.

sthief09 · #9 11-12-2005, 11:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
there are also times when the flop comes 776 and you raise the flop getting way the best of it

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you get way the best of it against a 9-outer? (Two overcards plus a 6 counterfeits your hand.) The problem with 44 is that usually either your opponents make a small mistake (drawing to a live hand with just barely not enough odds) or we are making a big mistake (drawing to a hand that has nowhere near odds to make it).

That is why, as you say, this is a tough hand to play postflop if the flop doesn't have a 4 or isn't AKQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok youre right. this hand isnt a great example. hes getting the best of it, just not way the best of it. my point was just that there is some pair value. even if it's small, it still contributes to set value

climber · #10 11-13-2005, 12:07 AM

Man poker is annoying sometimes...

I want you to 3-bet preflop but without a read that a 3-bet would get it HU thats not really an option.

So then I say fold...but I hate folding preflop, especially with a hand and position.

So I do the same as you. Raise the flop and fold to the turn donk and wish I had folded preflop and not been so greedy.

I think you need to fold these preflop if you dont have some reads on your opponents to help you interpret their postflop behavior.