Altering txaq007's Question For Christians.

[Shandrax]

Sometimes I am asking myself why David is so interested in questions of religion. Is it the stage that comes after the midlife crisis?

"in which case Satan (yes I believe in him too) might be given free reign for a while via the anti-Christ and thus be the true cause of the occurance, i.e. a fake sign."

It's been a while since my bible studying days, but doesn't the new testament, I think in Mathew, provide for a test to determine whether the miracle maker is satan or not. In other words, if you say, "in the name of Jesus Christ, get thee hence Satan" If the voice in the sky is not God, then isn't he supposed to leave at this moment?
At any rate, if there is such a test and the voice passed, then I would convert to Judeism.

[The Dude]

Quite honestly, I don't see how any Christian could say 'no' to your question, without either arguing semantics or appealing to the skeptic's perspective (which would destroy their initial position anyway, so that one's out of bounds already).

I am a Christian, and my honest answer to this question is 'yes.'

[sexdrugsmoney]

[ QUOTE ]

Except that this voice then goes on to say that he wants everyone to realize that only the Old testament is right about him The New Testament was a clever fraud. He waited until now to tell everybody because he was hoping people would realize it themselves. But it finally became clear to him that wasn't going to happen so he was making one of his rare announcements. Put another way, he says, the Jews are right.

[/ QUOTE ](emphasis in bold)

This is a bad day for Muslims. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Ok, let's answer this question honestly and suppose we are a Christian. (let's call this Christian 'Sam')

Sam is a Christian, hears this message, thinks he's crazy, turns on CNN, it's a worldwide phenomenon, Sam is confused.

I would imagine that Al-Jazeera would broadcast shortly after this event a speech from a Muslim Imam claiming that somehow Zionists had used satellites or other technology to make the message heard, and that it is a war against Islam to have Jews control the world and rob them of their oil, and that the 1 Billion + Muslims should not believe it. (Ah Sklansky my friend, for all your logic you get a <font color="red">D-</font> on imagination and foresight - a true mathematician) [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Anyhow, Sam hears this message from the Muslim Imam on Al-Jazeera and wonders if this theory about technology doing it is possible, although he is wary of Islamic "Jewish-hate" propaganda of which he is used to hearing over and over from too many Muslims, and is present in The Qur'an which Sam has read. (Sam takes his soul and beliefs seriously, if he is going to wager, he's making the best bet)

Sam knows technology is advancing, yet in truth, nobody likes to be 'duped' (especially spiritually) so Sam will have to see if this phenomenon can be explained alternatively to the view the masses are taking, who are converting to Judaism in the millions.

The affect this phenomenon has on Israel is enormous. Suddenly many arab settlements are now full of Jewish converts, while suicide bombers up their attacks.

Sam's mind considers the Book of Revelations and the foretold 'signs and wonders' of the last days (not literal 'days' - ie age) and whether this is an elaborate plot to water down Judaism by creating a mass number of Jewish converts (especially in high places) so when the Anti-Christ comes (as a Politician most likely), the new Jewish converts are more easily duped. (if votes and democracy were still used, the new Jewish converts would accept a Messiah more easily than the older ones that have read the entire OT and study the Talmud one would think)

So how could the anit-Christ (following Sam's train of thought) be accepted as the Messiah? Christian Prophecy says the temple (Solomon's IIRC) has to be rebuilt (IIRC By the anti-Christ/false Messiah), the only problem is, where the temple is supposed to be rebuilt sits this:



The Dome of Rock.

Yet what if many Muslim's especially in and around the "Holy Land" heard this message and converted and supported the rebuilding of the temple in favour of the demolishing of the Dome of Rock, which now signifies a "false" religion to them?

Or the Dome may be destroyed by the Israeli army in retaliation for the "upped" suicide bombers, and it is doubtful while the rest of the world is converting to Judaism and becoming Jews, that they would oppose this act?

Or perhaps a vote may be taken by Jews worldwide to rebuild the temple of which many Jews will now have the power to "out-vote" the now smaller Muslim community who wish to keep it there.

And if the temple was rebuilt, would Jews now recognize this "anti-Christ" as the Messiah? (no doubt about Jesus now according to the 'voice in the sky')

Now the one who rebuilds the temple will he been seen as the Messiah? By all Jews? The Book of Revelations says no, and that 144,000 Jews will convert to Christianity; accepting Jesus and rejecting the anti-Christ and the "mark" (IIRC) in those days.

Anyhow this is alot for Sam to digest, and the future is unclear. All he knows is what has happened today: Worldwide apparent "miracle" saying Judaism = Correct, Christianity = Clever Fraud.

So Sam isn't making any rash decisions yet based on emotions. Sam chose Christianity based on reason and part of that choice was a logical and probable interpretation of the Book of Revelations. (with which according to current trends and technology is still an applicable alternative to the phenomenon the "masses" are embracing)

So Sam isn't convinced the sign is genuine, as this could be a fake sign a la the style Revelations predicts, while not necessarily buying into the Jewish-hate beliefs that many Muslims are taught by the people around them that the "evil zionists rule the world, drink blood, and meet once a year to subvert cultures of gentiles everywhere". (see the BBC documentary "Blaming the Jews" for good viewing)

Yet again, it would be wrong for Sam to dismiss the sign, he must weigh up the pros and cons of believing/disbelieving this phenomenon.

So Sam's in a strange place regarding his current beliefs and the new ones offered to him, so he sees two choices. (A &amp; B)

<font color="red">A)</font> This "miracle" could be genuine, Jesus may not be the Messiah, Revelations was just a clever hoax like the rest of the NT, and he's been duped.

<font color="blue">B)</font> This "miracle" could be fake, Jesus still could be the Messiah, Revelations still could be correct and predicted 'fake signs and wonders' before the coming of the anti-christ, and he's chosen the right faith to wager his soul on.

Hmm ... this isn't easy, so let's look at the ramifications of choosing either.

What if Sam chooses <font color="red">A)</font> ?

If correct: He (and the masses) have chosen the right religion, his soul goes to heaven when he dies.

If incorrect: He is duped by a false sign, his soul and it's resting place is in doubt. (or damned for almost sure if in the future he takes a "mark" like a microchip implant according to one possible interpretaion of the Book of Revelations)

What if Sam chooses <font color="blue">B)</font> ?

If correct: He avoids the fake sign and goes to heaven while the masses are duped.

If incorrect: Sam is duped by a false religion and his soul and it's resting place is in doubt. (though perhaps not to suffer eternally - see below)

The correct answer is therefore <font color="blue">B)</font>, Sam stays a Christian, here's why:

Out of the two scenario's only rejection of Christianity from what we know now endanger's Sam for eternity, and this is almost guaranteed if after this miracle Sam takes "the Mark of the Beast" which within reason would have to be financially and governmentally linked (as described in Revelations 13) and will most likely be an implantable microchip (possible) that the Book of Revelations has stated the majority of the world will take.

Yet if Sam rejects the phenomenon that says to covert to Judaism, he may still go to Sheol - the Jewish "hell" (translated from Sheol into "Hades" in Greek)

"So hang on, if Hell awaits both the incorrect choice of <font color="red">A)</font> or <font color="blue">B)</font>, why is Sam choosing Christianity <font color="blue">B)</font> again?"

Good question.

To answer it, we must look at what we know about Hell.

The Christian Hell is debatable, some say it goes forever, others say the soul is destroyed after a certain amount of time. (Note: the Lake of Fire may or may not be seperate, but it is guaranteed to go forever)

"But Sheol translated to Greek is Hades, not hell, and isn't hades purgatory or something similiar?"

Correct.

Hades is unknown whether it means hell, or a small hell like purgatory.

It is important to remember that by and large what normal people conceieve as hell is not biblically based, but is a product of medieval lore, media, &amp; marketing.

Hell is in both testaments of the Bible, unclear for certain, which probably means God wants you to take his word for it that it's a lose-lose situation and not to go there.

So let's look into the Jewish concept of "Hell/hades", this Sheol: (from Wikipedia)

[ QUOTE ]

Rabbinic Judaism

Gehenna is fairly well defined in rabbinic literature. It is sometimes translated as "Hell", but this doesn't effectively convey its meaning. In Judaism, Gehenna is not hell, but rather a sort of Purgatory where one is judged based on their life's deeds. The Kabbalah describes it as a "waiting room" (commonly translated as an "entry way") for all souls (not just the wicked). The overwhelming majority of rabbinic thought maintains that people are not in Gehenna forever; the longest that one can be there is said to be 11 months (just short of a full year's cycle). Some consider it a spiritual forge where the soul is purified for its eventual ascent to Olam Habah (lit. "The world to come", often viewed as analogous to Heaven). This is also mentioned in the Kabbalah, where the soul is described as breaking, like the flame of a candle lighting another: the part of the soul that ascends being pure, and the "unfinished" piece being reborn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, compared to the Christian hell, Sheol seems great. (maximum 11 months with possiblity of parole to heaven) [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

So from what we know in religious texts, Sheol seems to be Not For Eternity, I'll let Rabbi Simmons explain it in nice casual language:

[ QUOTE ]

For anyone who believes in a just and caring God, the existence of an afterlife makes logical sense. Could it be this world is just a playground without consequences? Did Hitler get away with killing 6,000,000 Jews? No. There is obviously a place where good people receive reward and bad people get punished. (see Maimonides' 13 Principles of Faith)

From Judaism's perspective, our eternal soul is as real as our thumb. This is the world of doing, and the "world to come" is where we experience the eternal reality of whatever we've become. Do you think after being responsible for the torture and deaths of millions of people, that Hitler could really "end it all" by just swallowing some poison? No. Ultimate justice is found in another dimension.

Not all souls merit Gehenom. It is for people who have done good but need to be purified. A handful of people are too evil for Gehenom, and they are punished eternally. Pharaoh is one example.

So what about "heaven?"

Heaven is where the soul experiences the greatest possible pleasure - the feeling of closeness to God. Of course not all souls experience that to the same degree. It's like going to a symphony concert. Some tickets are front-row center; others are back in the bleachers. Where your seat is located is based on the merit of your good deeds - e.g. giving charity, caring for others, prayer.

A second factor in heaven is your understanding of the environment. Just like at the concert, a person can have great seats but no appreciation of what's going on. If a person spends their lifetime elevating the soul and becoming sensitive to spiritual realities (through Torah study), then that will translate into unimaginable pleasure in heaven. On the other hand, if life was all about pizza and football, well, that can get pretty boring for eternity.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why the correct decision is for Sam to choose <font color="blue">B)</font> and remain a Christian.

If Sam remains a Christian despite the sign in the sky that day, he leaves his options open.

Sam can have his soul in Jesus, believing the sign could possibly be a fake one described in Revelations, and Sam could also study the Torah every day.

Worst case scenario: (based on what we know)

- Sam dies (without accepting any "Mark of the Beast")
- God sends Sam to sheol for 11 months.
- After which Sam is admitted into heaven with only a backrow seat, and only because he studied the Torah and was good as a Christian, so God takes some mercy on him because he still tried to 'feed' his soul and had 'half' of Judaism.

Sam also has a good excuse in that given technology and post 9/11 terrorism and potential attacks on civil liberities and increased security involving technology that he was duped by the Book of Revelations but loves God and has read the OT and begs for mercy.

God either takes compassion on Sam and lets him in, or says no way and Sam is destroyed after 11 months in Sheol (ie- no more consciousness) or God in his arbitrary power chooses to keep Sam in hell forever.

Both <font color="red">A)</font> and <font color="blue">B)</font> have their downsides, and ultimately it is only God in his arbitrary judgement who will judge as he pleases.

But from what we know having incomplete information (much like Poker), it's +EV for Sam's soul to remain a Christian and do Torah study on the side (Start learning Hebrew Sam and hope God understands.

And from what we know, God seems compassionate and negotiable. (See Genesis - 1st book of the Torah regarding Abraham pleading with God not to destory Sodom if he finds 50 good people, then 40, etc etc)

Cheers,
SDM

[Bigdaddydvo]

Does the booming voice also take its time to discredit the Koran?

[sexdrugsmoney]

[ QUOTE ]
Does the booming voice also take its time to discredit the Koran?

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't need to.

The Qur'an is discredited by implication because The Qur'an says Abrahams' test was to sacrifice Ishmael on the altar and not Isaac.

It also says believers of Islam (Momin) have the truth wheras Jews and Christians (aka 'People of the Book') have an incomplete message.

Muslims believe both the Torah and Gospels were corrupted and only The Qur'an is perfect and the final revelation from Allah.

IIRC. (Been a while since I've read it.)

[Dan Mezick]

David,

Not to be flip here-- just skeptical.

I understand the hypothetical scenario and I follow the reasoning. It works unless the "voice" that everyone hears came from this:

(Source) United States Patent &amp; Trademark office
==========
United States Patent 4,877,027 Brunkan October 31, 1989 Hearing system
[Microwave voice device-Alan Yu note]

Abstract
Sound is induced in the head of a person by radiating the head with microwaves
in the range of 100 megahertz to 10,000 megahertz that are modulated with a
particular waveform. The waveform consists of frequency modulated bursts.
Each burst is made up of ten to twenty uniformly spaced pulses grouped tightly
together. The burst width is between 500 nanoseconds and 100 microseconds.
The pulse width is in the range of 10 nanoseconds to 1 microsecond. The bursts are frequency modulated by the audio input to create the sensation of hearing in
the person whose head is irradiated.

Inventors: Brunkan; Wayne B. (P.O. Box 2411, Goleta, CA 93118) Appl. No.:
202679 Filed: June 6, 1988 ........ Description

This invention relates to a hearing system for human beings in which high
frequency electromagnetic energy is projected through the air to the head of
a human being and the electromagnetic energy is modulated to create signals
that can be discerned by the human being regardless of the hearing ability
of the person.

[ QUOTE ]

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Arthur C. Clarke, "Profiles of The Future", 1961 (Clarke's third law)
English physicist &amp; science fiction author (1917 - )


[/ QUOTE ]

Be careful when you hear those voices.

[Piers]

Ok, it seems clear that Physics is currently woefully inadequate to form a basis to understand the event you described. It might be an idea to commission a new branch of Science, call it Magic for want of a better word.

This will allow us to create predictive models that can encamps the events you document in your post without being tied to current scientific beliefs. This does not mean I am giving up on physics, as I fully expect at a later date we will be able to construct a uniformed model where current physics will be shown to be a projection into a subspace we have a perceptive bias towards. At that point we can merge the two terms.

Now back to your post. You are leading people astray with your glib assumption that because someone can do a magic trick they must be God (whatever that means). There is clearly no basis for this uniqueness assumption, and if fact it appears a particularly unlikely postulate. If one entity can do it, its natural to assume others can. Once we can gain a basic understanding of magic through some initial predictive models we should have a clearer idea of what’s going on.

Back to your question

[ QUOTE ]
Should Christians convert to Judaism

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably best from a pragmatic viewpoint. History has shown that being a member of a minority religion can lead to difficulties that can be circumvented by going with the crowd.

[MaxPowerPoker]

[ QUOTE ]
Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--
Gal 1:7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.


[/ QUOTE ]

No voice from heaven overthrows the resurrection. Christianity necessitates a truthful God. If God's words in the Old Testament are true and the words of the Son of God are true and the words of the apostles (Christ's messengers) are true, this voice from heaven cannot be from God.

Whoever is speaking the words claiming to be from God falls under the curse mentioned in the passage from Galatians that I quoted.

[udontknowmickey]

What if Sam isn't a dispensationalist?