ATs w/o pos -- lead out?

jrbick · #1 05-08-2005, 04:34 AM

Should I have lead out on the F hoping that a higher kicker is raising here letting me fold safely on the T UI? I'm posting results so you understand where I'm coming from here. I think that either way I saved bets on this one [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $1.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO (poster) raises, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, Button bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls.

Turn: (9.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, Button calls.

River: (11.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Final Pot: 13.25 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Tc Ac (three of a kind, aces).
Button has Ah Kc (three of a kind, aces).
Outcome: Button wins 13.25 BB.

Goodnews · #2 05-08-2005, 04:40 AM

Grunching

Lead the flop. By check raising the flop you blow away players who are likely to be behind and would call for one bet, but not for two.

Try not to post results since it kills the discussion.

jrbick · #3 05-08-2005, 04:47 AM

I only did so so that it would make sense why I'm worried about a higher kicker w/ AT -- Since the only one to raise PF folds, I have no reason otherwise to think so here -- leading out may have exposed the notoriously pre-flop-passive holder of AK/AQ/AJ.

Goodnews · #4 05-08-2005, 04:50 AM

By leading out, you might have gotten a few calls to pad the pot and give you better odds at drawing for your ten.

Ianco15 · #5 05-08-2005, 04:55 AM

Standard, although I think you could have just bet out on the flop.

thesharpie · #6 05-08-2005, 05:10 AM

Why do we not want to blow the other players out?

You played it fine.

thesharpie · #7 05-08-2005, 05:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
By leading out, you might have gotten a few calls to pad the pot and give you better odds at drawing for your ten.

[/ QUOTE ]

How does he know he's behind on the flop? Even if he does betting out isn't going to accomplish much.

Edit:

[ QUOTE ]

If the preflop raiser was in EP you could try for the check raise. Since it was CO who raised preflop I think you should just bet out on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the opposite, I would rather bet out if the PFRer was in EP hoping he'll face the field calling 2 cold. You don't want to keep people around in a large multiway pot with TPGK.

Wally Weeks · #8 05-08-2005, 05:19 AM

I'd lead out in hopes to see if someone behind raises. Then you could gather some info on whether you are up against a better kicker or two pair or better. The check raise probably just scared the TPTK opponent into thinking you yourself hand better and simply called down.

I don't think the hand played as is was horrible or anything, however.

Wally

imported_leader · #9 05-08-2005, 05:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Lead the flop. By check raising the flop you blow away players who are likely to be behind and would call for one bet, but not for two.

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot is big. Your goal should be to maximize your chance of winning it. Not to build a bigger pot.

[ QUOTE ]
By leading out, you might have gotten a few calls to pad the pot and give you better odds at drawing for your ten.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is incorrect thinking. Betting to get more money in the pot so you can draw to something is not sound poker.

jrbick · #10 05-08-2005, 05:35 AM

I think this play is definitely best -- I think I'm just crying because AK (to his detriment) never showed himself. There's no way I want this multi-way -- thinking through this if PFR'r was in EP -- I'd have to lead out, call the raise, and then call-down the whole way after the T ANYWAY... so I suppose my original question is a moot point in that either situation the results are the same -- even if CO DID raise how am I laying this down on any street (or do you begin to think AQ/AJ)?