Protecting top pair on the turn?

[Askilus]

Hi,

I've been doing some reading lately and I have focused on "Small stakes Hold'em" written by Sklansky, Malmuth and Miller. One of the sections that I have concentrated on is the "Protect your hand"-section. Therefor I would appreciate comments on my thinking in the hand below, where I tried to apply this concept.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls.

<font color="green">I'm not sure if this is a good call or not. I was pretty sure that one of the blinds where going to call so I quess it's an ok call.</font>

Flop: (12 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, CO checks, Hero checks.

<font color="green">With no aggression what so ever and a ragged flop I figured that the chance of me having the best hand at the moment was pretty big. So, how do I protect my hand? I didn't think that betting into this big pot would induce enhough people to fold so I decided that it was best to wait for the turn. With a safe card I could bet/raise to protect my hand and with a scary card I could fold.</font>

Turn: (6 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, MP1 folds, CO folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

<font color="green">Ok, i figured this card was pretty safe. It puts the straight on the table and a possible flush draw. But stil, it's a undercard to my top pair and I found it unlikely that someone would have 52, perhaps with the exception of BB who maybe could have called .5 with 52s. Anyhow, now I raised in an attempt to protect my hand, get people to fold (SB in this case, I didn't think that BB or UTG were going to fold) and maximize my chances to win this pot.</font>

River: (12 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

<font color="green">J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is a overcard to my pair and makes the flush possible. Therefor I decided to check behind on this one.</font>

Final Pot: 12 BB

My main question is about my play on the flop and the turn. Did I use the "protect your hand"-concept right or wrong? How would you have played this flopped, low, top pair?

[Jaran]

Hey Askilus,
Not to sound harsh, but checking through the flop and planning to raise the turn does not protect your hand. All this does is give everyone a free card, which is something you don't want to do with such a vunerable holding. Now, I'm not an expert on the wait until the turn to raise and protect your hand line, but I'm sure that you need someone to have bet before you on the flop before this is a viable option.

-Jaran

[Askilus]

You do not sound to harsh, I appreciate your input and I might very well be way out in the blue with this one.

In this particular case I guess that my turn raise didn't protect my hand very well since the bettor was BB and the only one I forced to call two ones cold was SB. With a bet from my right (either on the flop or turn) it would have been easier.

Would a bet on this flop (with 12 sb in the pot) better protect my hand do you think?

[Gravy (Gravy Smoothie)]

You should bet this flop 100% of the time.

That aside, fold preflop.

[Jaran]

It really doesn't protect your hand, but giving a free card is worse. Any K-T on the turn is really ugly for your hand, and at this level, lots of people love to see flops with as little as one paint. I would have bet the flop here. Also, the way you played the hand is inconsistant on the turn/river. After raising the turn, you should have bet the river.

-Jaran

[Aaron W.]

What does "protecting your hand" mean to you? The last paragraph of page 153:

To "protect your hand," you must bet or raise. Your bet should force players who hold weak draws to decide between folding and making an unprofitable call.

On the flop, the pot is 12 SB. Two overcards have as many as six outs, giving them about 7:1 to call. Sadly, you don't force those six out hands to make that decision. However, it's possible that the one of the overcards is an ace, which means that you have them reverse dominated and now their 3-outs aren't getting good odds (3 outs = 15:1).

It's also possible that some of the overcard hands will fold even though they do have odds. For example, QJ isn't so thrilled with his hand and may give up here (he doesn't know his outs are clean).

How much is it worth folding just one set of overcards? It's an extra 6 cards that can fall on the turn that are safe (6/45 = 13%). That means an extra 13% of the time, you'll still be ahead on the turn when you bet the flop. That's not bad, and it's reasonably likely that you'll get two players to fold.

(Consider also that even if you get 4 out of 5 callers, they are padding the pot with even more money for you for those extra 13% of turn cards.)

You have got to bet your top pair in this position every time. (But you should have folded preflop and never found yourself in this position in the first place.)