Party 15/30 AK hand

Sully · #1 08-18-2004, 11:58 PM

As a result of the lecture I received regarding my AK limp from the small blind, I am posting this hand. The fact that I raised before the flop definitely made the hand play much easier, but I'm still curious as to your thoughts about the play after the flop.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, Hero raises, 30annanc calls, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (9.66 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, annanc calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

*****Nobody showing any strength, so I have to assume my six outs (& backdoor nut flush draw) are probably good here. The raise before the flop gives me the odds to call here (thanks 2 + 2).

Turn: (7.33 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, annanc folds, BB folds, UTG calls.

******Again, I have the odds to make this call..seems pretty easy.

River: (10.33 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, MP2 bets, Hero folds, UTG folds.

******Can't win 'em all.

Final Pot: 11.33 BB
Main Pot: 10.33 BB, won by MP2.
Pot 2: 1 BB, returned to MP2.

Results in white below: 
MP2 doesn't show.
Outcome: MP2 wins 11.33 BB. 

Anything different I should do here, or is this how we handle AKo??

mmcd · #2 08-19-2004, 12:16 AM

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Anything different I should do here, or is this how we handle AKo??

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1. Raise flop
2. Take free card on turn
3. Possibly call on river depending on opponent.

IMO, there is a BIG difference raising 2 limpers in position w AKo (automatic) and raising 3+ limpers out of the small blind with this hand. I'm sure people will throw that weak/tight nonsense at you, but for several reasons I think you're better off just calling out of sb with more than 2 limpers in most games. The hand is just easier to play that way, and your hand is not that big of a favorite over other non-dominated hands.

Sully · #3 08-19-2004, 01:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Anything different I should do here, or is this how we handle AKo??

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Raise flop
2. Take free card on turn
3. Possibly call on river depending on opponent.

IMO, there is a BIG difference raising 2 limpers in position w AKo (automatic) and raising 3+ limpers out of the small blind with this hand. I'm sure people will throw that weak/tight nonsense at you, but for several reasons I think you're better off just calling out of sb with more than 2 limpers in most games. The hand is just easier to play that way, and your hand is not that big of a favorite over other non-dominated hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the advice on the flop raise...I like that play much more, and make the play above look pretty passive. As for limping with AK in the small blind, don't say that around here

OrangeHeat · #4 08-19-2004, 09:40 AM

I like to raise the flop here to knock out the rest of the would-be callers and to possibly take a free one on the turn.

Orange

Stay away from Darth mmcd and the weak tight side - raise the limpers ...even from the sb.

mmcd · #5 08-19-2004, 09:43 AM

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raise the limpers ...even form the sb.

[/ QUOTE ]

no

OrangeHeat · #6 08-19-2004, 10:00 AM

You and pokerhorse should get together.

orange

mmcd · #7 08-19-2004, 10:43 AM

AKo out of position in a multiway pot:

1. AK is not really that big a favorite against non-dominated hands like JTs 87s QJ, etc.

2. With 3+ limpers theres at least a reasonable chance that someone has a pocket pair. Theres also a chance that other A's and K's are already out. This means that you have a dominating hand, but also negates some of your outs.

(these may seem like weak-tightish concepts, but theres more to it)

3. You will have a harder time playing the hand correctly both when you hit and when you miss after the flop:

a) When you miss you either fire at the pot or check.
When you bet out, you can expect to get a bunch of
callers and almost certainly one will bet the turn
when you check. Now you are in the position of
(maybe) having to take another card off b/c of pot
odds where you may be no good if you hit (reverse
domination). When you check, the same can be said,
except, now depending on board and how many players
stay-in there will be some doubt in your mind as to
whether your AK is still the best hand.

b) When you hit your hand, checkraising now becomes
much more difficult. You probably should not even attempt
it because the risk of giving a free card is too great.
Betting out is just fine, but realize that now every
gutshot, bottom pair, middle pair, etc. will have
the odds to chase you. When you have 3 or more of
these type hands chasing you, there's a good chance
your AK will be no good by the river.

Essentially, you are giving yourself odds to chase when you miss, and your opponents odds to chase when you hit. You are also making it more difficult to protect your hand after the flop. Also, when you hit your hand, say on board of A-7-2, you will get less post-flop action from a 2nd best hand like AJ because of your raise, but get more action from hands like 87, 45s, backdoor straight and flush draws, etc.

4. When you raise in that position, people are going to put you on a big pair or AK and are going to respond accordingly in their play. By raising you are giving out a lot of information about your hand. If you decide to push your hand postflop. Most players will probably assume its a big pair, but still "chase" you and "pay-off" on the end because of the pot size. If you don't push your hand post-flop, people will assume you have AK and you will likely be pushed out of the hand when it comes 2-bets back to you. You will also get MUCH less action when you flop great as in AK7.

By raising out of position, you might win a bigger pot when you hit your hand AND IT HOLDS UP, but I don't think the extra 2 or 2.5 big bets you gain in those pots are worth the trouble that a raise creates regarding playing the hand.

Also, when you raise you are only gaining (if at all) a small fraction of the extra small bets put in in terms of ev.

OrangeHeat · #8 08-19-2004, 10:59 AM

Like I said - you should get together with Pokerhorse.

Orange

Barry · #9 08-19-2004, 12:02 PM

Now that's some of the worst advice that I have ever seen.

mmcd · #10 08-19-2004, 12:35 PM

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Now that's some of the worst advice that I have ever seen.

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I know I'm right.