a tight flop spot in the big blind hand quiz

[jetsonsdogcanfly]

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MP bets after limp/calling preflop. he likely has the spade draw/pair + draw/naked 9/ naked T if hes really bad/T+pair. many of these hands you dont want there. the spade draw wont fold. but a hdn like K7s will likely fold for 2 cold. further, the CO could easily be raising overs in position for a free card or has a pair. I think you have enough equity here to warrant getting the pot HU and cleaning up outs to raise.


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Given that you're at least going to call, you don't have to gain much to make the marginal benefit of tossing in that extra bet for the raise +EV. Still, do you think any of those hands, besides the K7, is folding for two more?

[DcifrThs]

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MP bets after limp/calling preflop. he likely has the spade draw/pair + draw/naked 9/ naked T if hes really bad/T+pair. many of these hands you dont want there. the spade draw wont fold. but a hdn like K7s will likely fold for 2 cold. further, the CO could easily be raising overs in position for a free card or has a pair. I think you have enough equity here to warrant getting the pot HU and cleaning up outs to raise.


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Given that you're at least going to call, you don't have to gain much to make the marginal benefit of tossing in that extra bet for the raise +EV.

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regardless of priors, you dont have to gain much to make the marginal benefit of the extra sb +ev.

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Still, do you think any of those hands, besides the K7, is folding for two more?

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you can fold out hands like T+pair that thought it was clearly ahead of the CO raiser if CO was on overs so instead of giving the CO a chance to take a free card, MP decided to bet. folding out a T clears up 9s as outs if CO is on Ahigh overs or a hand like A8s.

given MP open limped, he can have a large range of hands that hit this flop that may include a T or another 9, some of which may fold for 2 back.

Barron

[DeeJ]

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K9o is a hand that has substantial reverse-implied odds relative to its equity.

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Absolutely, and I understand that. If a King flops you have to be extremely careful to find out if someone else has a King, because if they do they very likely have you outkicked. The pf equity (allin) is a win/lose after all the cards are out; but as I know a decent MP/LP player won't be raising with K7 or K8 I can get away from it.

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In some spots, you clearly miss and fold- oh well, that goes into the 80% bucket. In spots where you hit, it is ulikely that you will be adequately compensated if in fact you have a winner. But how easily are you going to get away from a flop you get a piece of?

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This is why you need to play it. I think you win the "most" from the 9 hitting rather than a King as people play Kings with better kickers more often. It's an extremely valid concern. Nobody has yet said whether they play KT, KJ etc in this circumstance. We must be pretty close to the line here.

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Basically, you have to win more than you lose in the hands you continue with for the preflop call to be +EV.

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to be a nit, this is wrong because you already have 8 SB in the pot. So you need to win at least -7 SB on average, postflop, for the pf call to be >0 EV.

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Unless your opponents are very bad, this is more easily said than done with a hand like K9.

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Point taken. I think I always fold K7 and usually K8 here (depending on the players). K9 and above I play in this specific scenario. I'd be folding it against an earlier position raise or for more than 1 extra bet.

I think the fact that you are a decent way ahead makes it definitely playable here at 7:1. In fact this hand shows one example of how the 9 alone may make the hand a winner.

[DeeJ]

Turn: (7 BB) A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue"> (3 players) </font>
Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO checks.

River: (7 BB) 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP2 checks, <font color="red">CO bets</font>, Hero folds, MP2 calls.

Showdown: (9 BB)
CO has red tens.
MP2 hand history shows he had 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (a pretty loose limp)

So a flop raise is probably unlikely to have pushed out MP2, as he did have both straight outs and trips/2pair outs as well totalling 13 (although one 9 was dead). But if he had had A6/7/8? he may have folded it. Is that likely enough? Interesting hand.

If either one of these players had a flush draw, you would be drawing dead 50% of the time on the turn. I check and fold on the turn, but then again, I like a fold on the flop. It's too close to call when two of your outs could be dead. Not to mention someone could hold 99 in which case, you're drawing to a split if you're not drawing dead....blah blah blah....i really think this is one that can be let go on the flop, or maybe even PF. I dont like K9, especailly OOP.

Here's something I havent seen mentioned yet. It's within the realm of possibility to fold this hand PF. Seriously.

[jayheaps]

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If either one of these players had a flush draw, you would be drawing dead 50% of the time on the turn. I check and fold on the turn, but then again, I like a fold on the flop. It's too close to call when two of your outs could be dead. Not to mention someone could hold 99 in which case, you're drawing to a split if you're not drawing dead....blah blah blah....i really think this is one that can be let go on the flop, or maybe even PF. I dont like K9, especailly OOP.

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completely agree about the fold on the flop. one thing you didnt mention is that there is a decent chance it make end up 3 or 4-bet back to you

exactly. i hardly see the value in playing this hand OOP PF, and then cold calling OOP with a draw that isn't very big for a pot that ins't, either.

I like folding this hand PF, still. It is nice to know you were drawing very live, though.

I'd fold on the flop, though.

[DcifrThs]

Tx:
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Here's something I havent seen mentioned yet. It's within the realm of possibility to fold this hand PF. Seriously.

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ALL1N:
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I think preflop is a fold. K9o 4-way?? Not very special

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Jayheaps:
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if the players aren't out of line, this is a fold

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Jasont:

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this would be great if you were allin.

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And since he's not, it'd be better if he were in position.

Stop using PokerStove to make preflop decisions!


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READ: fold preflop.

Westly878:
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This is why I hate when people mention pokerstove, becuz it makes people make bad decisions like calling in the BB with K9o.


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READ: fold preflop.

Sthief09:
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you're out of position with a hand that is spectacular at being second best. if only the game was as easy as preflop equity...

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READ: fold preflop.

jetsonsgodcanfly:
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K9o is a hand that has substantial reverse-implied odds relative to its equity. In some spots, you clearly miss and fold- oh well, that goes into the 80% bucket. In spots where you hit, it is ulikely that you will be adequately compensated if in fact you have a winner. But how easily are you going to get away from a flop you get a piece of?

Basically, you have to win more than you lose in the hands you continue with for the preflop call to be +EV. Unless your opponents are very bad, this is more easily said than done with a hand like K9.

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READ: fold preflop.


no tx, nobody mentioned folding K9 preflop.

Barron