Crappy hands you think are ahead on the flop....

[ChuckyB]

Here's my dilemma. 3/6 at the B&M. I have 82s in the BB, open limp from middle position, three callers, SB completes and I check.

Flop comes 873 rainbow. I'd bet my top pair, or try for a check-raise if I thought it would limit the field. But this is 3/6 at the casino...it won't.

Am I best to check/call-1 in this situtation and hope for trips/two pair on the turn? (basically treating this situation like I'm behind). Or do you even fold top pair on the flop when you believe it's good (right now)?

[AaronBrown]

If you're going to fold when you get the top pair, why play the hand in the first place? Your best hope on this one is that no one else hits anything. I think you play this straight, making a bet and hoping for callers holding two unpaired high cards. People will figure you for approximately what you have (they won't suspect 82s unless you play this a lot, but they'll suspect a pair of tens or A8). But you can't be deceptive here, you won't fool anyone into thinking you started with a pair of 7's or T9. So play it straight and hope for the best. If that seems like a thin hope, fold it preflop next time.

[PJS]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're going to fold when you get the top pair, why play the hand in the first place? Your best hope on this one is that no one else hits anything. I think you play this straight, making a bet and hoping for callers holding two unpaired high cards. People will figure you for approximately what you have (they won't suspect 82s unless you play this a lot, but they'll suspect a pair of tens or A8). But you can't be deceptive here, you won't fool anyone into thinking you started with a pair of 7's or T9. So play it straight and hope for the best. If that seems like a thin hope, fold it preflop next time.

[/ QUOTE ]

He said he had the 82 in the big blind.

Anyway, the biggest factor to take into consideration is the size of the pot. If the pot is small, and someone bets into you representing top pair, then you kicker is obviously no good, and as the pot is small, you generally won't have odds to draw for a 2.

[Solami17]

Since you have an atbest marginal hand in a small pot, check/folding here seems best. Unless you have s backdoor flushdraw, play this one carefully

[ QUOTE ]
He said he had the 82 in the big blind.

Anyway, the biggest factor to take into consideration is the size of the pot. If the pot is small, and someone bets into you representing top pair, then you kicker is obviously no good, and as the pot is small, you generally won't have odds to draw for a 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, trust me on this - Aaron knows of what he speaks. And I'd bet my b/r he didn't miss "82 in the BB." I'm guessing you missed the "fold preflop" sarcasm.

My experience with 3/6 is maddening. Calling stations and chasers. Tough crowd to figure because occasionally they actually make a smart play. No, I'm not claiming to be a genius.

You're right, maybe, about one of them betting into you if they've got an 8. And it might even be 88. My experience again, is they rarely bet out with 88. So, as you said, his weak kicker leaves him screwed and I'd fold.

[ohnonotthat]

1. The majority of the time you should bet the flop and lean toward folding to any raise - definitely fold if anyone cold calls the raise.

2. If called by one player I bet the turn far more often than not; if you're raised, call if you think you're drawing live - but you need to be fairly certain you are. (In a bigger game against tougher players you'd need to mix this up from time to time - check-raising when you miss the turn, coming out betting as opposed to ck-raising when you spike your deuce, occasionally 3-betting when you've seen the raisor make moves in this spot with over-cards or when you think he will call with middle pair etc. - but here at BM 3-6 I don't think it's needed unless you have been throwing away alot of hands after betting the turn and getting raised. Even 3-6ers occasionally notice things.)

This is still a small pot and at best you have 5 outs - at worst you have 2.

This is a good example of "betting and folding when you have no outs" although the second half of that rule (check-calling when you have outs) is iffy here. If the turn is a scare-card and your bet gets raised you can safely fold; the raisor has to be concerned that this card helped you and is unlikely to raise with any hand you can beat (other than with a miracle 8 and even this may get you no more than a split).

On the river I would mix it up since there is really no clear-cut best play.

The straightforward play is to bet into passive players when you improve (call if raised since betting the river and folding to a raise will make you a target for the rest of the session especially if you were the aggressor through-out the hand) and check-fold when you don't; a passive oponent won't bet the river here with a hand worse than yours.

Check-raise aggressive players when you hit and check-call when you don't.

*

Anyone who usually plays bigger games will think I've lost my mind but this is the best approach in low-limit games - at least those here in A.C.

- If you find yourself in L.A. ignore everything I just said; those folks are nuts. Against them there is no debate re. what to do if you check the flop and it gets checked thru - it'll never happen. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

*

I will now sit back and await the inevitable - someone saying in 2 sentences that which took me 20. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[winky51]

Also the # of callers on the flop 1-2 is good, 3+ bad with the 2 kicker.

If I read this right you got 5 callers? Check fold is my option since they will all be calling with 2 overs, gut draws, middle pair, Ace crap runner runner gut draw. Too many to mess you up. I'd would check fold if any action.

[cardcounter0]

[ QUOTE ]
2. If called by one player I bet the turn ...

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't seem to have a clue of what kind of game he is talking about.
[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[cardcounter0]

Okay, you bet.
Next player will sigh, look at his cards, slowly and reluculantly throw in a call.
Next player will sigh, look at his cards, slowly and reluculantly throw in a call.
Next player will sigh, look at his cards, ...

The Turn comes a blank. You bet.
Next player will sigh, look at his cards, slowly and reluculantly throw in a call.
Next player will sigh, look at his cards, slowly and reluculantly throw in a call.
Next player will sigh, ...

The River comes a brick. You bet.
Next player will sigh, look at his cards, slowly and reluculantly throw in a call.
Next player will sigh, look at his cards, slowly and reluculantly throw in a call.

Suddenly one of the players will raise -- he hit his set, top-bottom-middle-one-or-the-other two pair, double-gutshot straight, runner-runner flush, or whatever hand that beats you.

So let's see what happens when you check:

You check.
Next player will sigh, look at his cards, and check. Next player will sigh, look at his cards, and check.
Next player will sigh, look at his cards, and check.

Last player to act will sigh, look at his cards, and bet --as is required by official low limit rules to prevent a free card from occurring.

Now the small blind will either fold, or sigh, look at his cards, and slowly and reluculantly throw in a call.

If both you and the small blind fold, UTG will excitely sit bolt upright in his chair and raise. All will fold, and UTG and the Button will check it down to the river where UTG's Q7o queen high will beat the Button's T6o.

If you both call the button's bet then:

Next player will sigh, look at his cards, and call.
Next player will sigh, look at his cards, and call.
Next player will sigh, look at his cards, and call ...

Turn comes a blank.
First player will sigh, look at his cards, and check ...

[ohnonotthat]

Touche' [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]



However, the fact is I do - I really do.

I said "if called by one player" [on the turn].

What I should have said is, "when called by ONE player - as will occur semi-annually . . ." [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

*

Love your description of the expected action (rofl [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]) but I disagree with you re. the action on the river.

The guy who hits his hand on the river will often foil your plan to bet out, as well as the callers attempts to call, by bolting up in his seat, grabbing a fistful of chips, staring at the dealer and chirping "WHO'S IT UP TO" ? [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]