Did I run into an expert? - Page 2

derdo · #11 05-27-2005, 05:08 AM

I think, this argument that "hero was making the correct bets for the villian so he didn't need to raise to punish the flush draw" doesn't make sense. There is no difference in just checking and giving a free card and just calling.
The bet is already in the pot. At that point if he just calls, he is giving you a free card not punishing your draw at all.

viennagreen · #12 05-27-2005, 06:16 AM

No--- i don't think that you are correct.

If it costs a pot-sized bet heads-up on the turn to see the river card--- a flush draw is being punished regardless of whether they were the bettor or the caller....

rickr · #13 05-27-2005, 09:56 AM

With the pot bet on the flop Villian really has no reason to think you are on a flush draw. Very few players will bet a draw that hard. In his mind, if he was thinking, was that you were holding top pair, or overpair, trying hard to drive out the draws. Think about it. He is against the other big stack, holding middle set, on a flush draw. With those bets he has to feel he is ahead, or at least has outs. But with the draw on the board, he may feel it costs him too much to get you to drop a hand that you really seem to like, so he decided to keep the pot small until he saw the board.

Or he was simply a donk who never even saw past the 9 on the flop and was going to slowplay it no matter what.

Later,
Rick

Voltron87 · #14 05-27-2005, 10:01 AM

i go broke here approximately... 100% of the time.

this is unfoldable. what is beating you, 99, aa, a2, and tt. not too much. you also have 40bb chip stacks, which is very short. so you played the hand fine, just ran into a better one. do not worry about folding full houses when there is heavy action. unless you have 45 and the flop is 55993, or something like that.

shadyridr · #15 05-27-2005, 10:07 AM

Ive found it better not to try to figure out what the other person is thinking because most other players are idiots and dont play things the way I would which ends up screwing me up more in the long run.

jon_1van · #16 05-27-2005, 10:41 AM

I don't know. If I'm in the chip leaders shoes and I see you make a full pot bet at the flush draw board I'd be more likely to put you on a random T (not a 9 because I see 3 of the 4) than anything else. A full pot bet here seems a bit too much for a scraggly flush draw. I don't think the chip leader can put you on a nice high flush draw because if you are sitting there with AKs, AQs, and maybe AJs you might throw in a big raise preflop. The CL can also rule out TT because you'd probably raise that too...and its rare to see set over set....see worrying about this hand is dumb

So, I think your flop bet screamed "please fold". In which case someone sitting there with a set might believe that a free card isn't to scary because he probably believe that very few cards that actually put you ahead of him.

jon_1van · #17 05-27-2005, 10:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If it costs a pot-sized bet heads-up on the turn to see the river card--- a flush draw is being punished regardless of whether they were the bettor or the caller....

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but you are still passing up an oppurtunity to punish the flush draw more, which is technically a mistake VIA FTOP

rickr · #18 05-27-2005, 10:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If it costs a pot-sized bet heads-up on the turn to see the river card--- a flush draw is being punished regardless of whether they were the bettor or the caller....

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but you are still passing up an oppurtunity to punish the flush draw more, which is technically a mistake VIA FTOP

[/ QUOTE ]

How would you be punishing him more? You are not punishing the draws. That's not what the raise is for. When the draw bet pot, by calling, you are giving him 2:1 odds. If you raise back, say 450 more, he has to call 450 into a pot of 1350, making that call correct. Am I missing something here?

Later,
Rick

swarm · #19 05-27-2005, 11:04 AM

I don't know about expert...

I think the villan took a definite, but calculated risk in letting you lead the hand. He hit trips against the other chip leader, a well played hand here can win a tournament for you.

Too bad that a spade or 10 didn't come on the river. Villan had no idea how close he came to hanging himself and making you the one with all the chips...

jon_1van · #20 05-27-2005, 11:15 AM

If Mr.99 puts in a flop raise of 450 (thus making it 600 to go) like you suggest our Hero will have to call 450 more for a pot that has 925 in it.

(25 + 50 + 50 + 50) + (150) + (600)

Our hero will the be faced with another 2:1 odds situation. And it would be wrong to draw to that with a flush draw and shallowish stacks. But after a while the Hero will be faced with a "the only way I can have a shot at all is if I get lucky here decision". So calls are more and more likely as the betting goes on