Why Joe Tall plays 20-40 and I play 4-8

[MRBAA]

I did my part for Joe Tall's earn rate last night at Foxwoods, putting the rest of his $20-40 table on tilt by chatting with him as he played.

Joe himself was gracious as always, despite having just had his aces cracked by 67 when the river paired sixes on the board. Another player in the hand had the rest of the aces and, as you can imagine, the connectors weathered some heavy action early. The lucky caller appeared unphased when I saw him after the hand, and Joe told me the guy even had the presence of mind to get in a checkraise on the end, rather than betting right out.

When I left him around 11, Joe looked prepared to play for as long as it took to get it all back. And I'd bet he did (and a stack or two extra for his angst).

In between getting aces, Joe took a moment to listen to what I felt was a rather cleverly played hand from across the room, at my 4-8 table.

With a tight utg and four loose gooses all limping, I smoothly checked my option with AK in the BB.

Why, you ask, would I do such a thing? Well, I thought I saw two advantages:

First, I'm going to be in early postion from here on. So if I raise and the flop misses me,
I don't have the opportunity to get checked to and follow up my preflop raise with a bet to hopefully win right there, or at least see the river free.

Second, I disguise the strength of my hand, so I can get paid off when I do hit.

In other words, I lose less when I miss and make more when I hit.

In exchange for this, I give up getting 2.5bb extra into the pot preflop from the other players.

Let me stress that while these players were loose, they weren't playing random hands. It wasn't six to the flop everytime by any means. So I was likely against pocket pairs, suited cards (big little and/or connectors) and any aces.

And, while these people would make incorrect calls to draws with insufficient odds, they were not total calling stations. In other words, bottom pair wasn't usually going to call down a preflop raiser on a board with big cards.

So my hand was likely to be in trouble a fair amount of the time even when I called a flop bet and spiked an A or K on the turn. And I was likely to get less action when an A or K flopped if I raised preflop.

Further, remember that my extra equity in preflop bets is not huge -- it's only the difference between roughly 16.7% and the greater equity AK has against five better-than-random hands.

In other words, I don't need to gain huge playing advantages from a check here -- just enough to outweigh the relatively small equity edge I'm giving up by not raising.

Joe heard it all, although I don't think I put it this precisely in the crowded cardroom, and was unmoved. To him, 2.5bb more should have gone into that pot.After all, I had AK and they didn't.

I still think it depends...but he's a strong enough player that I'm starting to wonder.

[JohnShaft]

Wasn't is Sklansky who called not raising AK out of the blinds (after a few limpers) "a crime against humanity" on these forums?
I agree. I'm sure most on here do.

Don't worry about the times you don't hit with it after raising.
Worry about the times you do hit, and didn't raise...

[Holm Fries]

[ QUOTE ]

Let me stress that while these players were loose, they weren't playing random hands. It wasn't six to the flop everytime by any means. So I was likely against pocket pairs, suited cards (big little and/or connectors) and any aces.

And, while these people would make incorrect calls to draws with insufficient odds, they were not total calling stations. In other words, bottom pair wasn't usually going to call down a preflop raiser on a board with big cards.


[/ QUOTE ]

All the more reason to raise from the BB with a strong hand. If you raise and bet a flop that misses you, you want bottom pairs to fold. If there were calling stations at the table, you would have a better argument to check, although I still think it is wrong.

[barrett]

I think Sklansky's post was about AKs specifically. I assume the poster means AKo.

But still.. You have a premium hand! Raise!

[MRBAA]

I did not believe betting into a field of five players with AK when I missed the flop to be a +EV play in this game.

[Ulysses]

Raise. Nothing says you have to burn a lot of chips post-flop if you miss.

[ScottTheFish]

I think the times you get action from a weaker A or K from your slowplay are far outweighed by the times the flop only hits you, and you make squat postflop, and wish you'd gotten some money in preflop.

[top2pear]

I used to have a hard time NOT falling in love w/AK: raising preflop meant i had to bet out on the flop no matter what my position and how it hit/didn't hit me. I think i've since taken an alternate extreme (i.e., wrong) approach after reading Cloutier's book on NO LIMIT (hence the vv wrongness of my sea change) repeat the Zen koan, "When you got Big Slick and don't hit the flop, what do ya got? Nothin, that's what!" So now i've been folding too frequently when i miss despite position and opponents and size of the pot and preflop action. I don't want to be one of those guys who rams and jams w/AK to the bitter pill end on the river only to lose to T6o who caught bottom pair and knows that's how i play AK and is willing to take a chance. I slow down when the flop doesn't hit me at all (not even a draw, is what i'm sayin); i'll still lead at it if i sense weakness, but a single call on a rainbow, non-straight board (especially) means i gotta catch a card, have the right price to draw to 6 outs, or get the bleep outa there.

[Mike Gallo]

I agree with Joe Tall here.

I will almost always( almost meaning above 95%)of the time raise from the bb with AK.

You might even want to raise with A10 suited from the spot.

Ironically this weekend, I raised from the bb in a family pot with jacks and with A10 suited. I won a huge pot with the Jacks against an unimproved AK. The A 10 hand I won by betting the flop.

[Fianchetto]

You said these guys will play any ace; raise it and punish them while you have them dominated. Then hope for an ace on the flop and you can make them pay some more.