2 questions

[DeeJ]

pf is fine. 3-bet for value for an excellent draw and to try to push out gutshots or weak pairs eg 66 or lower. You won't push out flush draws and you probably won't succeed in pushing out gutshots, but it depends on the players.

I think you guys are still missing the point you don't just three bet cause you have a great draw you still must find the way to maximize vaule from the draw. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] And also how to be able to get away from this hand if there is a bigger hand out there. The hand I worry about is bigger diamonds which rapes me on the turn if i three bet it on the flop and the turn is a diamond and they check to me and i get check raised. The problem there is what do i do if the big blind check raises the turn when the K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] comes out? Re raise and put him on king queen so he can cap it with Ax [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or instead just smooth call and let his Ace [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and Queen of [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] get there? Or throw the hand away thinking i'm beat? Do you guys start to see the problem. Remember just because you had hand that will improve about 50% or more of teh time doesn't mean its an instant winner. Instead the best thing to do is just call two bets, and besides with the big blind betting, and the UTG+1 player raising I want to let them have control and have the action naturally go back to the big blind to see if HE three bets. He may have a hand as good as Ace of diamond, Eight of Diamonds here..... Just raising the flop cause you have a 'good draw' is a nooblet move and you won't make as much money as you could in the long run.... ::sigh:: [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]....-Andrew

[hobbsmann]

dude, you suck. Seriously do what expected value is? 3-betting this flop with a huge draw IS the most profitable play and it is not even close.

Okay if that is true prove it by mapping out how that is true and refuting what I said about the other hands taht might be involved. Just throwing around stuff like EV without explaining it useless. Besides it doesn't matter three betting isn't a bad play by any means but I'm just contending that you leave yoruself open on the turn in certain cases. I don't think you'll be able to refute that. Provide me reason why your anaylisis and anyone else that says raising the flop is the right play and I won't nessicarily disagree. I think the one things that are pretty irrefutable here is that the call preflop is questionable (not terribel just not a great call in the long run) and that there should be a raise put in here at some point durring the hand. And the I suck comment was so inspired, intelligent and witty it was amazing I hope you keep enlightening the poker world with your vast knowledge of insults. -Andrew

[newhizzle]

muse - do you realize that we are a mathematical favorite to hit a hand that is very likely to be a winner by the river?

[golferbrent]

I have 2 explicit reasons to 3 bet the flop. Number one is that with the equity we have in the pot... ie. approx. 45% or so if our diamonds are good, it makes sense to get the money in now. When the turn comes and we don't make our hand we lose a great deal of equity in the pot.

The number 2 reason to 3 bet the flop is that we may fold out the BB and the button, which leaves us against a player who may not have a hand at all. Which means we may add outs to our hand.

I think these two reasons combined are reason enough to 3 bet the flop. An additional reason to 3 bet is that if we get the pot heads up... with the original raiser we could win the hand unimproved. The pot has 6 BB in it already and at this point I want to do everything possible to give myself a chance to win the pot.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
The hand I worry about is bigger diamonds which rapes me on the turn if i three bet it on the flop and the turn is a diamond and they check to me and i get check raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

A) Who said you have to bet the turn?

B) You've got a 12 outer against higher diamonds subject to a 9ish out redraw, so it's basically impossible to really be in tough [censored] here. You'd have to be up against a higher flush draw and an overpair/top pair for you to really be in a tough place, and the chances of that happening are slim enough in a 3-way pot that over the long run, you will be gaining a huge overlay on any additional flop estimate. This is NOT a hand to be looking to get away from at any point in time.

Pump. It. Up.

Rob

[Dazarath]

Muse, in the situation where you miss the turn, it'd be ideal to pump the flop and have it get checked to you on the turn. You'd be getting money in with an awesome draw while your equity is high, and you'd put in 0 bets on the turn when your equity has decreased. As for worrying about a higher flush, it happens. But you can't play poker always worrying when you don't have the nuts. If you have KQss on a 2-spade board, are you going to check/call when you hit your flush, just because someone might have a higher flush?

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
The hand I worry about is bigger diamonds which rapes me on the turn if i three bet it on the flop and the turn is a diamond and they check to me and i get check raised.

[/ QUOTE ]
Could you think of a worse case scenario for why you don't want to 3-bet? Here, I'll add a fun scenario. The turn is a black 6 and you get checkraised.