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  #91  
Old 12-15-2005, 11:25 PM
Marnixvdb Marnixvdb is offline
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Default Re: who were behind 9/11?

Wh1t3bread,

You find it sad for the human race that I believe this nonsense. In this thread I have never said I believe this 'nonsense', I have stressed that I'd rather not believe it, as the reality it implies (cynical domestic terrorism by U.S. Government) is much grimmer than the reality of the official story (the western world threatened by foreign, islamic terrorism). I do have a lot of questions regarding 9/11 though, and I would want to have an explanation that I can live with.

What bugs me a lot, is that 9/11 was covered intensively the few days afterward, planting all the images and the stories in our minds, to later stop broadcasting the images because it would be too painful for us to see. This is a bs reason. We have always been shown the images of WW2, and a lot of other man and nature related disaters, to remind us of what happened, to not to forget. How come that everything surrounding 9/11 is now clouded in secrecy, when a lot of people, even the victims, are simply looking for answers to some very basic questions of what happened that day, who were responsible, how they could have pulled it off, and how it comes that before 9/11 the gov't had no idea of what was about to happen, yet after 9/11 they had a perfect explanation and were able to point at the culprits at the speed of light.

Why is nearly ALL of the essential evidence now secret? Why, for example, were the relatives of the people who died in flight 93 told to not disclose anything they heard of the flight recordings? The government claims it is 'to protect national security' but that is a hollow phrase. The disaster has already happened, openness about what happened is not going to hurt national security in any way. Why is the access to photomaterial, videomaterial, witness accounts, material samples, flight recordings, etc. denied? Can you think of one reasonable reason, other than that there may be something to hide, whatever that may be?

What I am trying to do here, is to falsify the theory that it was a conspiracy. I am not trying to prove the theory, I am trying to falsify it, and I fail at doing so - I find no convincing arguments how it could not have been an inside job. World politics are cynical. You should open your mind to alternative explanations, research them, to either reject them, or investigate further until you can reject them, or until you have no other option than accept them as a possible reality. This is how scientific research works. I have asked a lot of questions in this thread that have found no satisfactory answer. I still hope someone can provide them, but at this point I am pessimistic.

Marnix
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  #92  
Old 12-15-2005, 11:32 PM
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Default Re: who were behind 9/11?

Marnix- The exterior of the building was damaged causing a redistribution of loads to the perimeter walls and columns. You also have fires which are burning for 7 hours. You are going to have a difference in thermal expansion between the core and exterior load bearing systems. The floors will begin to sag pulling inwards and bowing the perimeter columns and walls. As the loads are shifted, the whole structure becomes highly unstable and overloaded, leading to the collapse. Can I tell you it was a truss or column on the nth floor that was the straw that broke the camels back? No. I don't have specifics on floor plans, building materials, fire loacations, etc. I will be very interested to see the NIST report on WTC7 in 2006. I think then we will be able to have a much more detailed discussion. If you haven't seen their website, I suggest you check it out.

What I would like to know is how did so many people conspire to detonate #7. Were explosives placed during construction, before 9/11, on 9/11? How has nobody talked? Just imagine the magnitude of the operation. The only "evidence" is people saying they herd bombs going off and explosions. Again, do they expect it to just quietly begin to fall? Where is the paper trail? Who's responsible?
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  #93  
Old 12-16-2005, 02:45 AM
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Default Re: who were behind 9/11?

First of all, nobody except the victims families and certain people in the government know the content of those tapes. By all accounts the tapes are of a struggle between the passengers and the terrorists. That, in and of itself, does not adequately explain the plane going down. The terrorists had a mission, they would not have nose-dived the plane in the face of resistance, they would have continued toward D.C. had they successfully fought off the partisan-passengers. Had the passengers killed off the terrorists, they would have at least made radio contact. There is no report of that. They would have made radio contact even if they had killed all the terrorists with the exception of the one piloting the plane. There is no doubt in my mind that a struggle took place. I know that I would drop the copy of "Super System" that I would have been reading and led a charge against fundamentalists that wanted to hijack the plane I was on, but nothing has been reported about any of the passengers during or after a struggle making radio contact. I doubt the struggle itself caused the plane to plummet to the earth; a missle probably did that.
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  #94  
Old 12-16-2005, 03:29 AM
Cumulonimbus Cumulonimbus is offline
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Default Re: who were behind 9/11?

[ QUOTE ]

What I would like to know is how did so many people conspire to detonate #7. Were explosives placed during construction, before 9/11, on 9/11? How has nobody talked? Just imagine the magnitude of the operation. The only "evidence" is people saying they herd bombs going off and explosions. Again, do they expect it to just quietly begin to fall? Where is the paper trail? Who's responsible?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm really glad you mentioned this, cuz I was about to. This is yet another monstrous piece of evidence. Demolishing a building takes 2-3 weeks of planning. It's going to be especially hard to set up explosives when the [censored] buliding is on fire. Whoever mentioned it above, how about YOU do some logical analysis. Seriously, the amounts of evidence regarding 9/11 are monstrous. It is really easy to accept that the government did this when you get rid of your damn CNBC/Bill O'Reilly/Stars and Stripes/propaganda-filled block in your head. I say that not in a vicious way, keep in mind, because I had that block at one time too. I know, it's hard to move and I understand if anybody does not want to accept it. But it did happen, the government DID do this, and I will discuss and argue it to my grave because this country and it's money-motivated politics will never change for the better if people don't start figuring out what is really going on. I mean, I'm arguing this on a poker forum, risking being called all kinds of names and such while risking my credibility as well. And it's easy, cuz it means something to me, and it feels right to make people, especially you, my 2+2 friends, understand.

Anyways, here's something I didn't know about the tower collapses. Man, there's so much more evidence than there was when I researched this stuff last year.

[url=http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/metallurgy/index.html[/url]

And here's building 7 on fire, taken from this link :



-Kyle
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  #95  
Old 12-16-2005, 03:50 AM
BCPVP BCPVP is offline
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Default Re: who were behind 9/11?

[ QUOTE ]
I mean, I'm arguing this on a poker forum, risking being called all kinds of names and such while risking my credibility as well.

[/ QUOTE ]
What credibility? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
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  #96  
Old 12-16-2005, 04:23 AM
Cumulonimbus Cumulonimbus is offline
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Default Re: who were behind 9/11?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I mean, I'm arguing this on a poker forum, risking being called all kinds of names and such while risking my credibility as well.

[/ QUOTE ]
What credibility? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Rawr.
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  #97  
Old 12-16-2005, 06:56 AM
Marnixvdb Marnixvdb is offline
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Default Re: who were behind 9/11?

[ QUOTE ]
Marnix- The exterior of the building was damaged causing a redistribution of loads to the perimeter walls and columns. You also have fires which are burning for 7 hours. You are going to have a difference in thermal expansion between the core and exterior load bearing systems. The floors will begin to sag pulling inwards and bowing the perimeter columns and walls. As the loads are shifted, the whole structure becomes highly unstable and overloaded, leading to the collapse. Can I tell you it was a truss or column on the nth floor that was the straw that broke the camels back? No. I don't have specifics on floor plans, building materials, fire loacations, etc. I will be very interested to see the NIST report on WTC7 in 2006. I think then we will be able to have a much more detailed discussion. If you haven't seen their website, I suggest you check it out.


What I would like to know is how did so many people conspire to detonate #7. Were explosives placed during construction, before 9/11, on 9/11? How has nobody talked? Just imagine the magnitude of the operation. The only "evidence" is people saying they herd bombs going off and explosions. Again, do they expect it to just quietly begin to fall? Where is the paper trail? Who's responsible?

[/ QUOTE ]

The magnitude of the operations would be large. But not in the thousands of people, rather hundreds. Everybody involved would first be willing to be involved and therefore not mind not talking, and will also have good reasons not to talk. Even if they'd talk, most people would not believe them. Evidence will have been destroyed, and anyone in the lower ranks who would talk would be discrecdited by the gov't inmediately.

The paper trail? In building 7, there were offices of the CIA and the Secret Services. If it was planned, it was probably planned from there. The paper trail would be gone on the day of the attack itself. Troughout history, the CIA has done a pretty good job in keeping things secret.

Of course, the above is hypothetical. There have been big complots and secret operations in the past. Try to think and imagine yourself how such conspiracies are organised. The fact that you cannot understand or comprehend how the government could pull this off, does not prove it can't.

There is more suspicious surrounding the desctruction of the complex. Did you know that the owner of WTC7, Larry Silverstein, had only recently purchased the lease of the entire WTC complex? That he took out sky high terrorism insurace? That he made billions (yes: billions) of dollars of 9/11? Is that all coincidental? Possibly.

As to building 7: I will check out the NIST website. You refer to the damage caused by fired that burned for 7 hours. On the photo's and videos that are available, there is not a convincing sign of huge fire. There is smoke and flames coming from some of the floors, but it is nothing big compared to other, well recorded, high-rise buildings on fire. You say the only 'evidence' of planned destruction is eye-witness accounts, but the fact remains that it is unlikely for WTC7 to collapse after the damaged suffered. Everything that could have provided hard evidence to prove either hypothesis has been shipped away and recycled quickly. Anyway, I'll definitely check out the NIST report when it's finished to see what analysis they produce - thx for your answer.
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  #98  
Old 12-16-2005, 09:44 AM
wh1t3bread wh1t3bread is offline
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Default Re: who were behind 9/11?

I am thinking about this logically. I think that you are the one that is not.

Answer me this:

What is more likely, the US government secretly planned and conspired to cause 9/11 with such precision and secrecy that no one would ever find out?

Or...


19 terrorists took flight lessons, learned how to fly then hijacked four passenger planes and flew them into buildings?

The answer is obvious. The US government can't even leak the name of one CIA agent without getting caught. The government can't maintain supposedly secret prisons in eastern europe without getting caught. A past President couldn't keep a simple BJ from an intern underwraps.

And now you are all saying that the US government can keep a secret as big as this one. It's completely laughable.
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  #99  
Old 12-16-2005, 09:59 AM
wh1t3bread wh1t3bread is offline
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Default Re: who were behind 9/11?

[ QUOTE ]


You find it sad for the human race that I believe this nonsense. In this thread I have never said I believe this 'nonsense', I have stressed that I'd rather not believe it.



[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. My apologies.

[ QUOTE ]

What bugs me a lot, is that 9/11 was covered intensively the few days afterward, planting all the images and the stories in our minds, to later stop broadcasting the images because it would be too painful for us to see.



[/ QUOTE ]

This couldn't be farther from the truth. Maybe where you are from, these images are not showed over and over again. But I can tell you that here in America I am reminded of them everyday.

[ QUOTE ]

We have always been shown the images of WW2


[/ QUOTE ]

Many of those horrendous images of WW2 weren't shown the public for many years after the war completed.

[ QUOTE ]

yet after 9/11 they had a perfect explanation and were able to point at the culprits at the speed of light.


[/ QUOTE ]

It's really not that difficult to figure out who the culprits were when hours after the attack a terrorist group CLAIMED responsibility.

[ QUOTE ]

Why, for example, were the relatives of the people who died in flight 93 told to not disclose anything they heard of the flight recordings?


[/ QUOTE ]

I imagine the sounds of the recordings on the black box are extremely terrifying and gruesome. You are forgetting that the US is a country were someone can't even pass gas on the radio without getting fined.

[ QUOTE ]

Can you think of one reasonable reason, other than that there may be something to hide, whatever that may be?


[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, I agree with you for once. Yes I bet there is something to hide. But that something isn't that the US government caused 9/11. That something is that the US government failed its citizens up and down the board. Every agency, politician, policital committee, etc. failed the citizens of this country on that day. I think that's a more likely reason to not disclose many of those things you mentioned. And I think someday many years from now we all will have access to that information and we will see that our government did fail us and they knew the failed us.

[ QUOTE ]

I still hope someone can provide them, but at this point I am pessimistic.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well I can tell you that you aren't going to find the answers that you seek here. But I do hope that you find what you are looking for.
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  #100  
Old 12-16-2005, 11:46 AM
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Default Re: who were behind 9/11?

[ QUOTE ]
There is more suspicious surrounding the desctruction of the complex. Did you know that the owner of WTC7, Larry Silverstein, had only recently purchased the lease of the entire WTC complex? That he took out sky high terrorism insurace? That he made billions (yes: billions) of dollars of 9/11? Is that all coincidental? Possibly.

[/ QUOTE ]

The businessman who took over the lease of a building complex that was the site of a previous terror attack in 1993 took out insurance against terrorism. What next? Will businessmen in California buy earthquake insurance? Possibly.
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