Do You Call With QQ Here?

[CrisBrown]

Hi All,

Situation: Four players remaining, and you're the third stack. Short stack (Hall of Famer Chip Reese) pushes all-in UTG. Second stack folds on the button. You're in the SB, and you call the all-in -- about 1/3 of your stack -- with QQ. Big stack (considered by many to be one of the best NL players in the world) moves all-in from the BB. It's to you. Do you call with QQ?

This was the situation faced by the one amateur to make the final table in tonight's WPT broadcast. The amateur (I don't recall his name) got up to walk around and think about whether to call for all his chips, and the WPT went away for a commercial break.

This occasioned a discussion between my oldest son, my partner, and myself on whether he should call. I said he shouldn't call, because I didn't think the big stack would make this play with any hand other than AA, KK, or AK. So at best he's a small favorite, and possibly a huge underdog.

If it were a cash game, or early in a tourney, I'd be more tempted to call because it's more likely (4:3) that he's on AK rather than AA or KK, and with the short stack's all-in (most likely an A or a K), they probably hold some of each other's outs. So, on average, I'm a roughly 35% favorite to win this pot, getting 7:3 pot odds, which is clearly a call in a cash game, and probably also early in a tourney.

But at the final table, where most of the prize money is in the top three places, I can move up a spot just by folding and letting the big stack bust the small stack. I'll still have chips to play with (about 2/3rds of the second stack) and I can pick a better place to die than a small-favorite-big-dog spot like this.

Well, the amateur called. Short stack had K5s. Big stack had AKs. The amateur was a 50% favorite pre-flop, but the flop was A-K-6 and the river brought another Ace, so both 3rd and 4th stacks went out, leaving the big stack heads-up with a monster chip lead.

Second question: should the amateur have moved in with QQ to isolate? I doubt big stack would call in that spot with only AK. As it turned out, Chip Reese would have doubled up with the K on the flop, but I still think the amateur would have been wiser to push hoping to isolate rather than call and be put in a situation of calling himself all-in, in a 3-way pot, with only QQ.

Your thoughts?

Cris

P.S. I thought the amateur had played brilliantly up to this point, and I certainly don't mean to discredit him by referring him as "the amateur." He was a very skilled and talented player, who made some very strong plays.

P.P.S. It was sad to watch Chip Reese get run over in this final table. Every time he tried to get into a pot, someone repopped him, and he never had the right hand to make a stand. You could see the frustration in his face; he just never had a chance.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
I said he shouldn't call, because I didn't think the big stack would make this play with any hand other than AA, KK, or AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the flaw in your thinking. Top no-limit tournament players will make this play with many hands in order to isolate the all-in player. James showed weakness by just calling in the small blind. So, the Big Blind can make this play with many hands.

[brassnuts]

I'm not sure what the correct play is... but this is what I would have done:
pushed in with QQ
&
would had to have called the all-in... which wouldn't have been an issue had I gone all in.

[JustPlayingSmart]

I think there are a couple things that might have pushed him over the edge here into making this call. The first was the JJ hand. In that hand, Can Kim Hua raised to $65,000 with 88, and the amateur called. Barry then raised like $300,000 more, and the amateur called, and folded to Barry's all in on the K high flop. He was probably at least thinking about that hand earlier and wondering what Barry made that play with.

Second, is that he knows he is probably the worst player at the table. Knowing this, he may take the gamble that a) he has the best hand right now or b) he outdraws KK or AA. If I was at the table with those three, I would probably make the call under those circumstances. Of course, the way he was playing, he didn't need to make that call. He seemed to have Randy Jensen's number.

To answer your other question, I certainly would have reraised all-in with QQ there. I see absolutely no reason to give Barry a chance to make that play.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
I see absolutely no reason to give Barry a chance to make that play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you want him to make that play?

[JustPlayingSmart]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't you want him to make that play?

[/ QUOTE ]
Not if I'm going to agonize over the call, and then almost fold. If I plan on calling an all-in from Barry because I think I have the best hand, then I would want it. So I guess I would like him to make that play, because I would assume he would make the play with AQs and JJ in addition to AK, AA, and KK (and maybe even more hands). What happens though, if Barry just calls. Am I checking on a 2 3 7 rainbow flop?

[Legend27]

He definetly should call the all from the BB and yes he should have moved all in with queens in the 1st place.

You also said: "If it were a cash game, or early in a tourney, I'd be more tempted to call because it's more likely (4:3) that he's on AK rather than AA or KK, and with the short stack's all-in (most likely an A or a K), they probably hold some of each other's outs."

That's definelty wrong. Much easier to fold queens early in a tourney or in a cash game in a situation like that since players only move in with aa or kk in those situations. Players go all in with much worse hands in later stages of tournaments and QQ is much stronger hand then.

[TheArtist]

I agree. I mean if you knew the blinds was making an all-in -desperate move, and that he can have anything from small pair or weak ace to cards like K9-K5s, JQ to JTs. If you had AQ, AJs, JJ-99 and you thought SB was weak, wouln't u be incline to make this move too isolate? Since Barry is someone who is capable making this move with all sort of hands, I think it's an easy call. Morever, this is the best time to bust out the two players that is much better than he is on a gamble that he maybe be a favorite.

TheArtist

[superleeds]

I would have moved in pre-flop. Having said that if I had only of called I would probably would have called the bet after, I think Greenstein may make this move with a few more hands than just AA,KK and AK given the positions and stack sizes.

I agree that 'the amateur' played excellently after he got that early JJ limp out of system.

I hated Greenstein's call with T7 on a flop with 2 overs and no draws when he was heads-up, but apart from that I thought he was excellent. Best show so far IMO.

[ohkanada]

Not a chance in the world I don't raise all-in after the initial all-in and thus would never face that decision.

Ken Poklitar