leading with middle set on turn OOP vs two opponents

bfc · #1 08-01-2005, 06:57 AM

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (10 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

MP1 ($69.45)
MP2 ($99.55)
MP3 ($26.60)
CO ($96)
Button ($63.90)
SB ($99)
Hero ($106.45)
UTG ($87.15)
UTG+1 ($169.60)
UTG+2 ($127.85)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls $1, UTG+1 calls $1, 1 fold, MP1 calls $1, MP2 calls $1, MP3 calls $1, CO calls $1, 1 fold, SB (poster) completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($8) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (8 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG bets $5, UTG+1 calls $5, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, SB folds, Hero raises to $15, UTG calls $10, UTG+1 calls $10.

Turn: ($53) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero?

This is a great turn card for me and I'm fairly sure I'm leading. Both opponents are weak with a wide range of possible hands but Ax (including A2 A5) and flush draws are most likely. Either of them could possibly call a pot-size bet with a flush draw (especially if one of them may be holding Kh).

My small flop raise was possibly risky but I didn't want to scare off hands I was beating (if the turn brough a heart I was planning a blocking bet hoping for a call and the board to pair on the river). Would you have played the flop differently?

Do you push here? If you instead bet $50 and get a call from UTG+1 what do you do if the river is a scare card (e.g., a heart or an ace) (pot is $150 and you have $40)?

BirdieLongSocks · #2 08-01-2005, 07:00 AM

Nice C/R, pot turn.

ryanghall · #3 08-01-2005, 07:18 AM

You need to make your raise a little bit higher on the flop (at least to $20) and if they both call then it makes the turn an easy push.

Ryan

bfc · #4 08-01-2005, 07:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You need to make your raise a little bit higher on the flop (at least to $20) and if they both call then it makes the turn an easy push.

[/ QUOTE ]

True. But if I make it $20 to go on the flop and get one caller then the pot is still $53 on the turn and I face more or less the same dilemma.

#5 08-01-2005, 08:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (10 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

MP1 ($69.45)
MP2 ($99.55)
MP3 ($26.60)
CO ($96)
Button ($63.90)
SB ($99)
Hero ($106.45)
UTG ($87.15)
UTG+1 ($169.60)
UTG+2 ($127.85)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls $1, UTG+1 calls $1, 1 fold, MP1 calls $1, MP2 calls $1, MP3 calls $1, CO calls $1, 1 fold, SB (poster) completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($8) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (8 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG bets $5, UTG+1 calls $5, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, SB folds, Hero raises to $15, UTG calls $10, UTG+1 calls $10.

Turn: ($53) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero?

This is a great turn card for me and I'm fairly sure I'm leading. Both opponents are weak with a wide range of possible hands but Ax (including A2 A5) and flush draws are most likely. Either of them could possibly call a pot-size bet with a flush draw (especially if one of them may be holding Kh).

My small flop raise was possibly risky but I didn't want to scare off hands I was beating (if the turn brough a heart I was planning a blocking bet hoping for a call and the board to pair on the river). Would you have played the flop differently?

Do you push here? If you instead bet $50 and get a call from UTG+1 what do you do if the river is a scare card (e.g., a heart or an ace) (pot is $150 and you have $40)?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you can just bet the pot here and see what happens on the river. Also, if they're both weak, I can easily see one of them having aces up and raise you all in on the turn. One probably has at least an ace and the other is most likely on a flush draw. If they both just call the turn and a heart hits, you have to check. If both are giving action on that river, you have to fold and save your last $40. But I don't think pushing the turn is a bad idea either. Since they're both weak, you can probably put them on just about anything. I can easily see someone having A-3 or A-4 here with top pair and a gutshot. And you can't rule out that a 10 makes somebody a straight too. Any ace might make a full house for aces up. And obviously any heart is real bad. There are a lot of things that are not great on the river, and against two opponents I don't think pushing the turn is terrible. I weaker player with just aces up might be suspicious of an overbet and actually call you.

xorbie · #6 08-01-2005, 09:16 AM

Bet $40, push river. Also the whole point of checkraising the flop is to not give draws the odds to call down. Make it $20 there, and then the pot is $70 on the turn, meaning you can push and UTG will still probably call with a made hand.

swolfe · #7 08-01-2005, 09:29 AM

i don't like the flop check-raise, especially when you're giving great odds on a draw heavy board. i'd lead for $8 and likely 3-bet all-in if raised.

pot turn, push river.

bfc · #8 08-01-2005, 10:13 AM

Thanks for taking the time to comment.

I bet $50 on the turn getting a call from UTG+1 and river brought the ugly 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I lead out for my remaining $40 (which I think is a no brainer) and villain called and took the pot with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

I'm happy with how I played the turn and river and accept that I should have raised more pre-flop.

I've been giving some thought to what to do in general when holding the nuts or near nuts on the turn OOP with 1.5-2.0 times the pot size behind me. I faced this same situation two other times today, both times I was holding the nut straight on the turn with a possible flush draw (and in one case the river could have made a higher straight possible). Approximately half the deck could make hands on the river that opponents could possibly hold and I found myself pot committed and OOP with no idea of whether I have the best hand. This got me thinking about whether overbetting the turn is a workable strategy. Since I'm going to invest the rest of my stack on the river anyway is it worth putting it in on the turn? Clearly this depends on the reads I have and the extent of the overbet.

I understand that the best strategy is to avoid this situation by giving more thought to the flop bet but whether through bad management or bad luck I find myself facing this situation often on the turn. In the hand I posted, for example, a bigger re-raise with one caller would have left me in this situation.

djoyce003 · #9 08-01-2005, 10:22 AM

it's not a bad strategy if you think your opponent will call it anyway, and you know you can't fold to the scare card on the river. If you can fold to the scare card, then full potting is better. Once you pay off his flush, his call on the turn was not all that bad.

bfc · #10 08-01-2005, 10:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
i don't like the flop check-raise, especially when you're giving great odds on a draw heavy board. i'd lead for $8 and likely 3-bet all-in if raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you do it you get two callers on the flop and the same K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] turn? I assume a pot-sized bet on the turn and then give it up if they both come along and the river brings a heart.

I chose to check raise since I was confident someone would open with a raise behind me and I could get a big bet in but I wasn't confident anyone would reraise if I opened. I'm just starting out in this game and would love to hear your thoughts on this.