check/raise, check/call?

wheelz · #1 11-18-2005, 08:30 PM

villain is TAG. the other guy at the table joined not too long ago, i had been playing the button HU for a while before. i was lagging it up against him so he probably thinks i'm a bit wild, and he's seen me c/r a lot of flops against him. he was folding a lot HU, but he seemed to finally adjust and make some calldowns.

Prima 20/40 3 handed

Villain raises, SB folds, I call in BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

(4.5 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
check, he bets, i cr, he calls.

(4.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
i check, intending to call if he bets. if he checks behind i'm betting a safe river.

i haven't played in a while, is this just weak or OK?

JoshuaD · #2 11-18-2005, 08:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
but he seemed to finally adjust and make some calldowns.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems to me to be a good reason not to C/R the flop, but check-raise when you hit.

StellarWind · #3 11-19-2005, 01:16 AM

What is the idea behind the flop checkraise? Did you add up all your draws and showdown value and decide you wanted to get paid for your pot equity? Are you hoping to drive some particular set of hands out of the pot? These are real questions, not rhetorical ones as I don't quite know what to do with this awkward hand.

The four on the turn however is much easier. You've leapfrogged a ton of common stealing hands and strengthened your draw. Do not give a free card to all those aces, straight draws, and flush draws that are chasing you.

He may have a king in which case you'll be raised. But is bet-call, check-fold really any more costly than check-call, check-call?

[ QUOTE ]
villain is TAG. ... i had been playing the button HU for a while before.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why do you do this?

ArturiusX · #4 11-19-2005, 02:49 AM

Check-call the flop unless he lays down stuff that isnt TP.

Spicymoose · #5 11-19-2005, 02:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Check-call the flop unless he lays down stuff that isnt TP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get what you mean, he lays down tons of stuff that isn't TP. I like the check raise. You have about 12 outs, or just about 50% equity against any pair, but you also get to fold out a ton of hands that might have won if you decided to check call the flop and turn, but fold the river UI. I think you have to follow through and bet this turn, especially considering that you hit your 4, and are now beating all of his non pair hands, along with having 14 outs, or close to 30% of the time beating any of his paired hands.

ArturiusX · #6 11-19-2005, 04:38 AM

Sorry, my point is hes folding to our check-raise on this flop very rarely, but much more likely on the turn.

flawless_victory · #7 11-19-2005, 07:15 AM

i think its pretty bad.

there are a million hands he might peel with on this flop and fold fourth.
that 4 didnt help him and i think this is an automatic bet.
if you get raised, no big deal. 14 cards to CR on the river, and youll only lose 2BBs UI, which is the same amt you lose w your scaredy line (you absolutely need to call the river if u checkcall turn).

MAxx · #8 11-19-2005, 08:53 AM

I'd bet/call and consider showing down unimproved.

The Truth · #9 11-19-2005, 10:48 AM

I see no reason not to fire another bet at this pot.
I think there is a chance he could raise the turn with worse hands as well.

But I think he is folding lots of hands to the turn bet.

He'll also call down with some worse hands.

Fire.

blake

wheelz · #10 11-19-2005, 12:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i think its pretty bad.

there are a million hands he might peel with on this flop and fold fourth.
that 4 didnt help him and i think this is an automatic bet.
if you get raised, no big deal. 14 cards to CR on the river, and youll only lose 2BBs UI, which is the same amt you lose w your scaredy line (you absolutely need to call the river if u checkcall turn).

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah of course this is usually an auto bet for me, and i would've auto bet if the turn wasn't a 4. i agree there's a million hands he might peel with on the flop then fold on fourth, and i guess that's what led me to check. what i was thinking was he's folding a worse hand on the turn or probably raising a better one. of course getting raised by a better one isn't really a problem, cause i'll lose the same amount to a better hand anyway but probably get more if i river him. by checking the turn though i thought he might either bet (maybe even the river) with a worse hand that he would've folded, or call the river with one. i think he calls a river bet against me with something like QT after i check the turn on such a drawy board, but he's not going to call the turn with it.