blind battle

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the only better hand that is folding is K high.


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Barring a flush draw, why would someone call the turn with K-high and fold a safe river? I think bluff equity here is nearly zero.

This river is an easy check because betting makes no sense at all. If he bets then I'll decide what to do. Meanwhile I have other tables to play ...

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yeah, barring a flush draw is what i was saying.

either way, i agree that betting makes no sense.

i feel like most draws would raise that flop since it's all rags and pick up some fold equity against overs. and if he's not passive enough to raise any strong draws on that flop, how likely is he to take a stab on the river with less than Q high? this one really depends on the opponent.

Wheelz,

For the first time in this forum, I'm having a ton of trouble putting my thoughts into words concerning a river decision...maybe because of the complexity of the situation.

I think all of us hate this river situation and we're looking for the lesser of all evils. I don't think there's much shame in checking and folding on the turn, but there is so much temptation to represent the ace that most of us wind up betting. Everything is fine UNLESS villian calls behind us. When that happens, we're in a sh!tload of trouble.

This post has me thinking so much that I am sure we will all benefit from it. Great job!!! [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[Jeff W]

This is such a wierd hand... wtf can he have that just calls on this board. He might have a pair of 4s or a pair 7s or 8s that was waiting to raise the turn and got scare by the ace or he might have picked up a diamond draw on the turn to go with whatever weak draw he called with on the flop. I guess a pair of aces is possible too.

I'll tell you what I'm not doing: betting or check-calling(check-raising>check-calling).

[cartman]

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If he will automatically bet when checked to then I think betting becomes much more appealing

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You should think a little more about that statement.

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I know it sounds nonsensical and I think our disagreement is with your opinion that we have zero folding equity and that there are some busted draws that he will fold. If you take my perspective on the prospects that he will fold, then I think my statement above makes perfect sense under the assumption that I wouldn't under any circumstances check-call this river. In other words checking is an implicit concession on my part because he will always bet and I will always fold.

Cartman

[Wynton]

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If he will automatically bet when checked to then I think betting becomes much more appealing

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You should think a little more about that statement.

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I know it sounds nonsensical and I think our disagreement is with your opinion that we have zero folding equity and that there are some busted draws that he will fold. If you take my perspective on the prospects that he will fold, then I think my statement above makes perfect sense under the assumption that I wouldn't under any circumstances check-call this river. In other words checking is an implicit concession on my part because he will always bet and I will always fold.

Cartman

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I don't get this, Cartman. If you know villain will automatically bet the river when you check, why isn't that an argument in favor of check/calling?

I actually think the best play is check/fold, but I disagree that the villain's tendency to bluff at the river is a factor in favor of betting the river yourself.

[Poldi]

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under the assumption that I wouldn't under any circumstances check-call this river.

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This is really bad. Why handicap yourself? If you know he will bluff all of his busted draws check-calling is clearly the best option as he will fold his bluffs to your bet and check-folding you would fold the best hand too often.

[cartman]

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This is really bad.

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You are right. I went braindead on this issue yesterday. If betting the river won't fold a better hand and won't get a call out of a worse hand then betting is crazy. I don't know what I was thinking.

I still think that check-fold is the only play here unless we know that villain will automatically bet when checked to, then I don't know.

Your favorite moron,
Cartman

[wheelz]

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(check-raising>check-calling)

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why is that? you think he'll bet a pair of 4's or k high then fold it? you really think i can get an 8 to fold?

[sthief09]

Hero checks, BB bets, Hero folds.

[wheelz]

that was my plan but he checked behind. i wasn't convinced though.