an unknown uses a confusing line part 1

wheelz · #1 09-21-2005, 07:31 AM

both players are unknown, it's my first orbit. have to call down?

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 1 fold, CO 3-bets, Button calls, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (10.66 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, CO checks, Button checks.

Turn: (5.33 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Button calls, Hero ?

krishanleong · #2 09-21-2005, 07:44 AM

I think fold is the right play. It doesn't make you feel good, but I think it's the right play.

Krishan

TMFS9 · #3 09-21-2005, 07:48 AM

I figured that was you at the table, i don't recall this hand but in that game I can't fold it, what opponent was it?

wheelz · #4 09-21-2005, 08:00 AM

ACEHEARTTT

spydog · #5 09-21-2005, 08:02 AM

I'm calling this down if button hadn't coldcalled 2. Since he did, I think I can fold this.

wheelz · #6 09-21-2005, 08:06 AM

what if the only hand you've seen the button play is this: utg raises, folded to mp who 3 bets, he calls in the sb with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. does that change things?

spydog · #7 09-21-2005, 08:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
what if the only hand you've seen the button play is this: utg raises, folded to mp who 3 bets, he calls in the sb with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. does that change things?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. I'm probably calling down both of them.

cartman · #8 09-21-2005, 08:32 AM

I would say CO has quads or an overpair about 75% here and a big Ace high probably with a flush draw the other 25%. Who knows what button has but a monster waiting until the river is certainly a possibility. Maybe it is different in the higher games, but at 5/10 and from what I have read in the archives about 10/20 CO's flop check is an almost guaranteed monster. That said I think your only choices on the turn are bet and fold to a raise and check-call. I remember a post I think by gonores where he commented basically that he would check-fold anything less than top pair top kicker on the turn after a preflop 3-bettor checked the flop and that he wouldn't bet unless he had at least two pair.

Cartman

spydog · #9 09-21-2005, 08:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I would say CO has quads or an overpair about 75% here and a big Ace high probably with a flush draw the other 25%. Who knows what button has but a monster waiting until the river is certainly a possibility. Maybe it is different in the higher games, but at 5/10 and from what I have read in the archives about 10/20 CO's flop check is an almost guaranteed monster. That said I think your only choices on the turn are bet and fold to a raise and check-call. I remember a post I think by gonores where he commented basically that he would check-fold anything less than top pair top kicker on the turn after a preflop 3-bettor checked the flop and that he wouldn't bet unless he had at least two pair.

Cartman

[/ QUOTE ]

You make some good points. This does appear to be a pretty standard 'monster line'.

I've changed my mind back to fold. Sorry, Wheelz.

wheelz · #10 09-21-2005, 08:42 AM

Good points, I should've thought more about what to do if I got raised before it happened... I think either bet-fold or check-call is better than bet-call.

About the preflop aggressor checking the flop though, I'm just not so sure these days. I think back when gonores was posting here it was almost common wisdom that the preflop aggressor checking behind on the flop meant he had a big hand, but nowadays I see a hand that missed the flop far more often. Maybe it's just me, but I've found that the majority of online shorthanded players at these limits really are making continuation bets with almost all of their hands; they know better than to check when they actually hit a flop. That's the majority of them, and IMO. So it's certainly not out of the question that it's a monster, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say nowadays it's a missed hand more often.

The turn raise this hand seems to suggest the opposite, but that's irrelevant.