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#12
07-24-2005, 07:42 PM
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Re: Review: Hand 1, Q8o
[ QUOTE ]
This is a fold. [/ QUOTE ] I disagree. This hand is very easy to play. (And very easy to find out when you are behind). Q8o is not that bad of a hand. There are tons of bad players already in the pot. Who knows with what MP2 is open raising. I'm not defending my blinds with any two suited, but I am here. We've got a 3 gapper with a high card (that is not easily reverse dominated like if we had a K). Also, I am in great position. 
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#13
07-24-2005, 07:54 PM
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Re: Review: Hand 1, Q8o
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] This is a fold. [/ QUOTE ] I disagree. This hand is very easy to play. (And very easy to find out when you are behind). Q8o is not that bad of a hand. There are tons of bad players already in the pot. Who knows with what MP2 is open raising. I'm not defending my blinds with any two suited, but I am here. We've got a 3 gapper with a high card (that is not easily reverse dominated like if we had a K). Also, I am in great position. [/ QUOTE ] How strange. I'm defending with any two suited here and not defending with Q8o. It's a multiway pot with a preflop raiser and two cold-callers. The chances of domination here are rather high as players coldcall hands like QJ. I'll give that it's not as bad as defending with K9o, but Q8o still faces domination problems. If it were folded to me, then defending with Q8o makes more sense. Also, I don't think your position is that great. You act just before the preflop raiser, so you can't raise to isolate your flopped made hands (which is the sort of hand that hits Q8o). I would rather have a drawing hand where I can check-raise the flop and trap everyone.
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#15
07-24-2005, 09:16 PM
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Re: Review: Hand 1, Q8o
[ QUOTE ]
How strange. I'm defending with any two suited here and not defending with Q8o. It's a multiway pot with a preflop raiser and two cold-callers. The chances of domination here are rather high as players coldcall hands like QJ. I'll give that it's not as bad as defending with K9o, but Q8o still faces domination problems. If it were folded to me, then defending with Q8o makes more sense. [/ QUOTE ] I see your point, but I still think that our equity is rather high here (at least high enough for one bet, and especially since I trust my hand reading skills). I don't give CCers credit for hands. They're donks. Also, most important is that the raiser is an open raiser from MP2. [ QUOTE ] Also, I don't think your position is that great. You act just before the preflop raiser, so you can't raise to isolate your flopped made hands (which is the sort of hand that hits Q8o). I would rather have a drawing hand where I can check-raise the flop and trap everyone. [/ QUOTE ] What I'm saying about the position is that all our options are open to us. We can bet out our made hands. Say you've got AK and BB bets out on 852r board. You're raising right? I am (especially since it'll get the pot heads up). Or if the flop is Q82 I can c/r. Or if I've got a couple backdoor draws I can check and if MP2 bets and everyone folds, I can fold, but if everyone calls I can too. Options are good.
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#17
07-24-2005, 09:25 PM
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Re: Review: Hand 1, Q8o
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] How strange. I'm defending with any two suited here and not defending with Q8o. It's a multiway pot with a preflop raiser and two cold-callers. The chances of domination here are rather high as players coldcall hands like QJ. I'll give that it's not as bad as defending with K9o, but Q8o still faces domination problems. If it were folded to me, then defending with Q8o makes more sense. [/ QUOTE ] I see your point, but I still think that our equity is rather high here (at least high enough for one bet, and especially since I trust my hand reading skills). I don't give CCers credit for hands. They're donks. Also, most important is that the raiser is an open raiser from MP2. [ QUOTE ] Also, I don't think your position is that great. You act just before the preflop raiser, so you can't raise to isolate your flopped made hands (which is the sort of hand that hits Q8o). I would rather have a drawing hand where I can check-raise the flop and trap everyone. [/ QUOTE ] What I'm saying about the position is that all our options are open to us. We can bet out our made hands. Say you've got AK and BB bets out on 852r board. You're raising right? I am (especially since it'll get the pot heads up). Or if the flop is Q82 I can c/r. Or if I've got a couple backdoor draws I can check and if MP2 bets and everyone folds, I can fold, but if everyone calls I can too. Options are good. [/ QUOTE ] No, our position doesn't give us many good options. In the first example, I have no idea why you think BB is going to bet for us or where AK comes from. In the second case, you're talking about a miracle flop. A "couple backdoor draws" must come down perfect for you because only one of your backdoor flushes is worth drawing to and you'll often be drawing to the inside of a backdoor straight, making it less valuable. As for the hand reading... I'll give you that it helps, but I don't know if it helps enough to overcome the negatives (relative position is a huge part of this since Q8o doesn't flop good drawing hands).
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#18
07-24-2005, 09:30 PM
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Re: Review: Hand 1, Q8o
[ QUOTE ]
What I'm saying about the position is that all our options are open to us. We can bet out our made hands. Say you've got AK and BB bets out on 852r board. You're raising right? I am (especially since it'll get the pot heads up). Or if the flop is Q82 I can c/r. Or if I've got a couple backdoor draws I can check and if MP2 bets and everyone folds, I can fold, but if everyone calls I can too. Options are good. [/ QUOTE ] I still wouldn't play this preflop because I'm good enough to know I'm not good enough to play these hands postflop. But I see your point here (and I think it's a good one) it's not our actual position, but our relative position to the preflop raiser that helps us here. Nice post.
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#19
07-24-2005, 09:32 PM
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Re: Review: Hand 1, Q8o
[ QUOTE ]
No, our position doesn't give us many good options. In the first example, I have no idea why you think BB is going to bet for us or where AK comes from. [/ QUOTE ] We're the BB and we have Q8. I gave PFR AK and figured the action might go like this: SB checks, BB bets, MP2 raises, field folds, BB calls. [ QUOTE ] In the second case, you're talking about a miracle flop. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, I know. That's why I was using it. I gave us a mediocre flop and a great flop. I assumed that everyone knows what to do with a terrible flop (c/f). [ QUOTE ] A "couple backdoor draws" must come down perfect for you because only one of your backdoor flushes is worth drawing to and you'll often be drawing to the inside of a backdoor straight, making it less valuable. [/ QUOTE ] Correct. What I was saying is that if we get some flop cards that help us, but not by much, and we get this: SB checks, BB checks, MP2 bets, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB? We're getting 13:1 (now that I do the math, it's probably a little less than we want but I think that we can make up 3 or 4 SBs by the river). We can call (or fold). [ QUOTE ] As for the hand reading... I'll give you that it helps, but I don't know if it helps enough to overcome the negatives (relative position is a huge part of this since Q8o doesn't flop good drawing hands). [/ QUOTE ] Hopefully I took care of the position part above, lemme know if I'm not making sense. You're right, that Q8o doesn't flop many good drawing hands. But I think that with the "discount" and several CCers, it doesn't have to flop drawing hands (or mediocre-miracle hands like above) that often. I am not good enough at math to work it out, but intuitively I think that we're priced in.
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#20
07-24-2005, 09:34 PM
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Re: Review: Hand 1, Q8o
[ QUOTE ]
Say you've got AK and BB bets out on 852r board. You're raising right? I am (especially since it'll get the pot heads up). [/ QUOTE ] I think that for non-2+2ers (and even then it is very situational) raising AK unimproved on the flop is a rarity at passive micro games.
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