Stuck Between a Rock and a Soft Place... 98s

W. Deranged · #1 10-19-2005, 12:08 PM

A'ight, so I've been experimenting with adding a few extra tables, and am working on bankroll discipline and am trying to regain confidence after running like ass for a couple of weeks, and so I played a session of 3/6 yesterday. Luckily, it was with great results. Here is an interesting hand I played.

The button is a rock (11.3/5.6/1.8, though I believe he actually appeared more rocky at the time than he did after a few more hands).

The small blind is a total soft seat, full of passive-bad goodness. (45/5/.8)

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Deranged is CO with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
5 folds, Deranged raises, Rock 3-bets, Soft Place calls, 1 fold, Deranged calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Soft Place checks, Deranged checks, Rock bets, Soft Place calls, Deranged calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Soft Place checks, Deranged bets...

Y'all dig?

Joe Tall · #2 10-19-2005, 12:15 PM

Does the Button continue w/postflop aggression? Or does he shut down when he misses. I think I like betting out on the flop, hoping the button would raise w/overcards.

W. Deranged · #3 10-19-2005, 12:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Does the Button continue w/postflop aggression? Or does he shut down when he misses. I think I like betting out on the flop, hoping the button would raise w/overcards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Joe,

This was definitely my first thought as well, but button struck me as very mouse-ish, and the SB was so bad he would likely cold-call two with tons of crap anyway. Since I figured that betting would not protect my hand, and usually if I got raised I was behind anyway, I decided a check-call would be better.

The other thought is that a turn donk is more likely to get the Rock to fold overcards than starting the aggression on the flop.

sfer · #4 10-19-2005, 12:23 PM

This is a similar hand to one that gonores put in mid/high a couple months ago. Here.

#5 10-19-2005, 12:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Since I figured that betting would not protect my hand, and usually if I got raised I was behind anyway, I decided a check-call would be better.

The other thought is that a turn donk is more likely to get the Rock to fold overcards than starting the aggression on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are excellent reasons for taking the line you did. I think I'm too eager to checkraise flops, or in this case, bet so the rock raises and the SB faces too cold. If the button raises the turn we're peeling one off and folding UI on the river, right? What happens, however, if he just calls? Do we bet a river that's not an ace or king, or are we worried he has a holding such as JJ?

PTjvs · #6 10-19-2005, 12:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is a similar hand to one that gonores put in mid/high a couple months ago. Here.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point of gonores's post was that he had gotten KK to fold. I simply cannot fathom any 3/6 player folding an overpair here, so I don't think your turn bet has a lot of value. That said, you have a lot of outs if behind & it doesn't really cost you that much EV to try.

jvs

sfer · #7 10-19-2005, 01:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is a similar hand to one that gonores put in mid/high a couple months ago. Here.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point of gonores's post was that he had gotten KK to fold. I simply cannot fathom any 3/6 player folding an overpair here, so I don't think your turn bet has a lot of value. That said, you have a lot of outs if behind & it doesn't really cost you that much EV to try.

jvs

[/ QUOTE ]

There are a lot of differences, not the least of which is that you still want overcards to fold. The problem I have with the turn bet is that, given how you played the flop and how one typically plays situations like this, the bet is usually very readable as a turned draw to a smart opponent. This might not be the case here but it happens.

SeaEagle · #8 10-19-2005, 01:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Since I figured that betting would not protect my hand, and usually if I got raised I was behind anyway, I decided a check-call would be better.

The other thought is that a turn donk is more likely to get the Rock to fold overcards than starting the aggression on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not so sure about this logic. Why is making donk call 2 cold on the flop a bad thing? You are likely forcing him into a mistake while he probably has correct odds to call 1 bet.

Likewise, you don't really want button to fold on the turn, since he doesn't have odds to call a single bet, even with 6 clean outs. Actually, you should probably be ambivalent since the EV difference for him between folding and calling 1 bet are negligible.

It seems to me that the way you played the hand gave your opponents the best chance to play correctly on the postflop streets.

Abbaddabba · #9 10-19-2005, 01:07 PM

With a low VPIP and a high AF, i would bet/call the flop in order to face the SB with two bets. Bet/call the turn after you pick up the OESD, and check/call UI if he just calls your turn bet - check/fold if he raised the turn. Check/fold any ace on the river, as that basically narrows down the hands that you beat to QKs (and given that he's a rock, 3betting there seems unlikely).

Against a tight passive, bet/call the flop, check/call the turn and check/fold UI on the river.

callmedonnie · #10 10-19-2005, 01:25 PM

Is he so rocky that his three betting range is a bit wider due to your apparent blind steal? I like leading the turn for a few reasons. First, waiting for a safe turn card makes your hand even stronger, especially the turn card that hit. Second, though he is a rock his stats don't look so weak that he will just give up when he misses. Leading the turn looks like a stronger play.

So yea, I think leading the flop isn't quite as good here because he will see turn anyway. What is the plan if Ace or other scary card falls? B/f? Do you feel obligated to lead again?

Someone in the thread mentioned checkraising but I can't see a reason to do that in this spot. Was there any river action?