please help me! i don't know where else to go!

Hi,
I have read these boards for many months now (mostly for Hold'em advice), but this is my very first post.

I recently started playing Stud
and despite being very successful early on, I have hit a few (actually numerous) alarming downswings that have crippled my bankroll and have forced me to quit Stud temporarily to go back to Hold 'em to re-build...

I'm not sure if I 'm playing the game correctly or not, but if I keep getting beat on the last card/river by my opponent catching inside straights and filling up (4 outer) that's a good sign, right?
Is being "ahead in the hand" important in Stud as it is in Hold 'em? (and is it "as" important? or does it not mean that much...)
I've noticed that oftentimes opponents have many cards that can come to overtake
a hand thats in the lead, much moreso than in Hold 'em (i.e., the suckouts being much worse in Stud - as I think a few have commented on recently here...). In hold 'em it seems that
many common cards can come that can improve both hands, but that still keep the hand that's in the lead in the lead...

I also have a problem where
I set myself up for my opponents check-raising me on the river. I know it depends on what cards they are showing, but, in general, how strong enough of a hand do you need to "Value bet" the river...
And is bluff betting the river feasable? How can you get a guy to fold a hand that beats you - this seems impossible to me...
(and, in general, aggression (while great for mid stakes hold em') is in general "BAd policy" for stud play...It seems like I may be picking the wrong spots to be aggressive, I dont' know...

Anyway - I jumped right into 15/30 Stud (after some success at 5/10 and a night of killing a 10/20 game) and have had a 1600$ downswing, a 1500$ one, and, most recently I won about $2,000. last night, and then lost it all (and then some) today.
Is this normal for 15/30$ stud and is this just a case of my failing to have the proper bank roll. (btw, what is the proper bankroll for stud play?)

I'd like to post a few hand histories too, if anyone would like to tell me how to do so properly (like I said this is my first post).

On a side note, it just feels really good to post this - to talk about my huge downswings...none of my friends play poker, so I'm speaking Greek talking to any of them...lol

Thanks in advance for any help! - Joe

[gol4pro]

70BB is not normal.

[PoorLawyer]

It sounds as though you may be overvaluing your hand and also not protecting it adequately. Post some hands and we'll see...

[peritonlogon]

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70BB is not normal.

[/ QUOTE ]

70 BB may not happen every day but it's not abnormal.

[BTirish]

You play higher levels than I do (I just moved to 3/6--I'm a newb), but maybe I can help out a little bit.

First, inappropriate bankroll size does not in itself account for your encountering large downswings, unless playing while undercapitalized causes you to play scared or to gamble too much.

There are more suckouts in stud. Most of the edges you push in stud are smaller than edges in hold'em. Unless you start rolled up, the best you'll typically have of it heads up will be a little better than 70-30. Equity doesn't drop quite as quickly in stud, for the most part, relative to hold'em.

So yes, variance is generally going to be higher in stud than in hold'em. Still, 300BB is an adequate bankroll provided you are a winning player at the limit you're playing. Just jumping into the 15/30 game isn't the best way to establish whether you are capable of winning at the level. I would definitely recommend polishing your skills at a lower level.

Have you read Seven Card Stud For Advanced Players? Once you've worked through that text, then I'd urge you to play at a lower level and post some hands here to get some feedback on your play.

Some of the most important skills in seven card stud just simply won't be acquired in hold 'em in a way that makes one a good stud player--reading hands, how to isolate players or grow pots, when to represent a stronger holding to build folding equity. These skills aren't exclusive to stud, but there are big differences between how these skills work in hold'em and how they work in stud. Hand value also changes drastically relative to the number of players in the pot, which is why being able to manipulate opponents is such an important skill.

As to some of your particular questions...
1) Whether or not a river can be value-bet is almost 100% dependent on the play up to that time and your read on your opponent. Sometimes you will value bet a single pair; other times you will check-call with a straight.
2) Sometimes a river bluff is possible. You have to have an opponent who is capable of laying down a hand, obviously. They do work occasionally (and I thnk it's possible to find spots where it is definitely a profitable play). I make bluffs occasionally, but I've never really tried to think of "what kind of spots do I bluff?"

Anyways, my advice is definitely to read 7CSFAP and to play lower limits to hone your stud game.

[bygmesterf]

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70BB is not normal.

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It's not abnormal either. I've had losing streaks as bad as -230BB playing high stud. It's just a swingy game.

Thanks for your help. A lot of the hands that I lost were hands that I was clearly in the lead. 1 hand I had 2 pair before the river and my opponent had no pair, no flush draw, only and inside str8 draw - and he hit it...Another big hand my opponent had JA downcards and the first 3 upcards he had 10 K Q...well, I made a set on the 5th card and raised only to be re-raised...I called down and lost.
And countless times/hands I have had the lead in this manner: I would have a pair of Queens, for example, going into the river, my opponent a pair of 10s, well he raised the crap out of me after my strong betting and I called down...he hit 2 pair on the river and I didn't - assuming we had all "live" cards how much in the lead am I in this situation?
(where it's HU going into the river I had a bigger single pair than my opponent...if we both don't improve, i win. if we both 2 pair i win. he needs to improve to 2 pair without my improving (or catch a set when I 2 pair w/out my hitting a set).
Am I really as ahead as I think here? This happened to me very often on my fun, fun $2,000. downswing.

I will say that I have seen guys at the tables I play have positive swings this high and once I watched a guy go from a little under $1,000. to over $4,500. in 2 hours. No joke - 15/30 limit. He won every hand he played, check raised again and again and kept catching cards...


- Joe

7 card stud for adv. players w/ the green cover?

I purchased a copy and am waiting for it in the mail. I will read it - any other good stud books? or sets of articles/websites you know that may help?

I love playing stud and don't want to play knowing I may not actually be beating the game I play in the Long-run...I don't want to play 5/10 or lower stud b/c it's just not really a good game on the site I play. a lot of the action (and the bad play is at 15/30).
Again, not really sure I know what bad play is - I'm just applying what I know about Hold 'em to Stud...

Perhaps I should play the 15/30, but set a "stop-loss" limit...Say, I should sit with $600. and if I lose it, go back to playing Hold 'em (where I know I can beat the game in the Long Run).
In the heat of the action it's touhg to adhere to a stop-loss rule I know, I have to muster up the discipline. lol

Joe

[BeerMoney]

Where do you play?

[Roland]

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Where do you play?

[/ QUOTE ]


I’m guessing he’s been playing in that $15/$30 game Mike mentioned once; where the ante is like $7 or something.
That would explain the fluctuations…
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