TQs BB. Standard?

[Shillx]

IMO it is inconsistant to raise preflop and check the flop. One of the big reasons to raise it in position is to get everyone to check to you on the flop and/or turn. One of the other reasons is to try and get 1.5 SB of dead overlay in the middle. You lose both of these things when you are in the BB (it is better to raise from the SB then the BB).

The only real reason to raise preflop here is if you think that your implied odds go up when you flop a strong hand or draw. While this is probably true, it is harder to collect OOP then it is when you have or buy the button. So a lot of good effects are nullified when you go from the CO to the BB.

Out of curiousity...would you raise 65s in this spot?

****Possible Spoiler****

Anyone who says No is raising QTs for the wrong reasons.

Brad

[SCfuji]

bet the flop.

[detruncate]

nh

[AlmightyJay]

[ QUOTE ]
First hand so no reads.

BB with T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

5 Limpers, SB completes. I raise. All call

7 go to a flop of 14SB.

Board brings T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Checked to UTG who bets. 1 fold, 4 calls and i peel one off.

6 go to the turn for 10BB

Turn card is the 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Checked to UTG who bets, UTG +1 raises, and the button calls. SB folds as do i.

Totally standard?

[/ QUOTE ]

I like it.

EDIT: except for not betting the flop. Definitely bet it.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]

Anyone who says No is raising QTs for the wrong reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

The overall equity edge between QTs and 65s is huge here. The "bad" from raising preflop with 65s is the same as the bad from raising QTs, but the upside of raising 65s isn't nearly enough.

Rob

[beaster]

grunch

Not standard.
With 6 others, by raising from the BB you're just helping out everyone else's pot odds since QTs is marginal at best from this position.

That said, flop call is fine considering your odds. Turn fold is also fine.

[Pedigree]

I like everything besides the preflop raise.

[Agthorr]

[ QUOTE ]
The overall equity edge between QTs and 65s is huge here. The "bad" from raising preflop with 65s is the same as the bad from raising QTs, but the upside of raising 65s isn't nearly enough.


[/ QUOTE ]

That was his point. Equity edge is the wrong reason to raise QTs preflop when there are many limpers.

[Shillx]

Rob

I made 2 posts and deleted one, so that is probably why it doesn't make much sense. There is an interesting dynamic that goes on between hands like QTs and 65s.

Against 6 random hands they both have an edge, but QTs has about 7% more equity.

When you drop it down to 6 top 40% hands (don't include TT+/AQ+) they both have an edge, but now QTs has only about 1% more equity.

Against 6 top 25% hands (no TT+/AQ+) they both have an edge, but now 65s has 2.5% more equity then QTs.

So my arguemnt here is that either a) both are worth a raise or b) QTs is worth a raise and a bet on a JT5 flop. The reason why it has 7% more equity against 6 random hands isn't because it will flop a bigger hand more then 65s (it would be the opposite) but it is because a pair of tens is a lot better then a pair of fives. We got a flop that we are looking for, so let's come out betting.

[Eeegah]

Bump cuz it's in the digest:

[ QUOTE ]
the counter argument, and the reason i raised is to push my pot equity which i feel is more than the 14.3% i need to make this a value raise.
Case in point:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 22.2148 % 21.04% 01.20% { QdTd }
Hand 2: 12.9288 % 11.90% 01.04% { random }
Hand 3: 12.9584 % 11.93% 01.05% { random }
Hand 4: 12.9768 % 11.94% 01.05% { random }
Hand 5: 12.9901 % 11.96% 01.04% { random }
Hand 6: 12.9789 % 11.95% 01.04% { random }
Hand 7: 12.9521 % 11.92% 01.04% { random }

[/ QUOTE ]

If we take your argument to its logical conclusion your PFR and VPIP should both be a little under 50%, as you should be raising any hand that has an equity edge over the random hands all your opponents are limping with if the pot isn't raised. We raising K5o in any position now?