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  #1  
Old 12-30-2005, 04:28 PM
deadmoney98 deadmoney98 is offline
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Default Live 1-2, KK played too weakly?

Live 1-2 at Caesar's AC, Hero has ~350, Villain covers.
Villain is a good, aggressive, thinking player (a rarity in this game). He will raise basically any two, but generally has reasonable standards for calling a raise and has shown down the goods in all his big hands. My image is TAG, bordering on rockish. Anyway, the hand...

Pre-Flop
Hero is on the button with KK.
Villain limps either UTG or UTG+1
2 or 3 players limp behind
Hero raises to 15
Villain calls, MP limper calls.

FLOP Q 3 4 rainbow
Villain leads for 35, MP folds, Hero flat calls

Turn 8
Villain checks, Hero checks

River J (no flush possible)
Villain bets 25, Hero calls.

Comments on all streets appreciated, rationale and results to come.

FWIW, I had seen villain check top pair on several occasions, but he did lead out one time with TP+OESD in a multi-way pot. Also, MP was a really bad calling station and not much of a concern to either one of us I am sure.
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  #2  
Old 12-30-2005, 04:38 PM
AdamBragar AdamBragar is offline
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Default Re: Live 1-2, KK played too weakly?

I can see why you might be viewed as a rock.

Do you think he'll fold to a raise on the flop? I haven't seen many 1/2 NL live players that will once they bet, but if you think so, I'd call the flop. That's cool.

Turn, he checks, I'd bet. Maybe 75-100 range. This is really the time I think you have to bet.

River call is fine.
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  #3  
Old 12-30-2005, 04:50 PM
deadmoney98 deadmoney98 is offline
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Default Re: Live 1-2, KK played too weakly?

If I raise the flop, yes I think villain folds basically all hands I am beating. I suppose if I made a girly raise he calls with 5-6, but I don't really see why he would lead with that (perhaps cause he thinks I'll just call). He would probably call with TPTK, but I don't think he would limp in at this table with A-Q.

Of course, if I raise the flop, and he has a set things could get complicated.
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  #4  
Old 12-30-2005, 06:04 PM
iceman5 iceman5 is offline
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Default Re: Live 1-2, KK played too weakly?

Calling the flop is fine, but checking behind on the turn is criminal.
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  #5  
Old 12-30-2005, 06:10 PM
deadmoney98 deadmoney98 is offline
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Default Re: Live 1-2, KK played too weakly?

I really did not think villain had a queen, and for whatever reason thought he had a hand like 99. I guess I just don't really see what betting accomplishes other than the obvious, which is taking it down right there, obviously an acceptable outcome. With bottom set in Villain's position, I would look to checkraise sometimes on the turn after that flop action (probably not in this particular game, but you get the idea.)

Anyway, what worse hand calls if I bet on the turn? Against most players in this game I would bet/raise all streets, but I just felt like I was WA/WB here.

Edited to add: His flop bet was a little bigger than the table standard, so I kind of felt like he was trying to end then hand right there, which his check on the turn helped to confirm. So why not check behind and let him take another shot on the river?
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  #6  
Old 12-30-2005, 06:16 PM
swarm swarm is offline
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Default Re: Live 1-2, KK played too weakly?

I'm raising this more preflop, I would have made it 30, i'm not playing KK 4-5 handed, especially with a deeper stack against a villan that covers me. Is this game that passive? Maybe you need to work on that image or changing gears in passive games.

As played:

Fine with your image smooth call the flop... Why in the world are you checking through on the turn?

Bet the pot man, KK isn't bullet proof. To be a TAG you do have to show an aggressive side you know?
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  #7  
Old 12-30-2005, 06:21 PM
iceman5 iceman5 is offline
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Default Re: Live 1-2, KK played too weakly?

Well if you dont bet the turn and he hits his 2 outter on the river for free, youre going to be pretty pissed. He also could have 56s of hes tricky.

Also, its pretty rare in these low limit games for someone to lead the flop and the check raise the turn. Check raises in general are pretty rare in the games Ive played.

Also, I would bet the turn here with any hand given this action. Youre playing the hand like someone who has AK, not KK.
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  #8  
Old 12-30-2005, 06:28 PM
deadmoney98 deadmoney98 is offline
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Default Re: Live 1-2, KK played too weakly?

[ QUOTE ]
Youre playing the hand like someone who has AK, not KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, and makes me wonder if I should raise on the end. Anyone think I could raise his $25 bet to 75 or 100 and get him to make a "big" call with a lesser holding?

Also, this was certainly a non-standard line for me, but I think it does get the most money from a 55-TT kind of hand. And raising to $30 pre-flop would be totally out of line for the table and no one would call. Anything over $20 has basically no chance of being called (except by AA of course)
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  #9  
Old 12-30-2005, 06:37 PM
wdeadwyler wdeadwyler is offline
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Default Re: Live 1-2, KK played too weakly?

[ QUOTE ]
I'm raising this more preflop, I would have made it 30, i'm not playing KK 4-5 handed, especially with a deeper stack against a villan that covers me.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are a donkey
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  #10  
Old 12-30-2005, 06:43 PM
swarm swarm is offline
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Default Re: Live 1-2, KK played too weakly?

[ QUOTE ]
And raising to $30 pre-flop would be totally out of line for the table and no one would call. Anything over $20 has basically no chance of being called (except by AA of course)

[/ QUOTE ]

My suggestion to that would be in these situations you need to be raising to 10-15XBB with more than just premium hands when you have position. You have to create ways for your big pairs to get paid off on. If the table is really that weak beat em up.

Creating or just adhering to situations were you are giving great odds to weak-nits to break you on your premium hands is not good poker.

I would suggest looking into improving your image and play style in different types of games. Dictate the table tempo, don't let tempo dictate you. Get these players out of their comfort zones and outplay them. You can still maintain a TAG style.
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