Is it possible to Donk the Flop? (yet another AQ hand)

Im kind of new to this term 'Donk'.

Did this guy Donk the Flop? Would you of folded here?

He had a 27% VPIP with a 6% PFR, but I only had him for 11 hands so that's probally meaningless.

I decided to fold because I thought there was a fairly good chance he hit his K, and 7:1 didnt seem good enough for a backdoor flush draw and 6 very dirty outs.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 :#A500AF(26VPIP)/ raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG+1 :#A500AF(26VPIP)/ calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">26VPIP bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 4.25 BB

[Nick C]

Yeah, I think it's fine. Villain probably has KQ or something and is testing out his king. Or maybe he's got TT and is trying to represent the king. Either way, you're behind.

Villain could have A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], but there really aren't a lot of flush draws available, unless Villain was raising light preflop.

[krimson]

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Yeah, I think it's fine. Villain probably has KQ or something and is testing out his king. Or maybe he's got TT and is trying to represent the king. Either way, you're behind.

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Could we not peel a card here? Getting 1:8.5, aces are probably clean, queens questionable, some backdoors (flush, hollywood and wheel). Possibly get a free card if UTG suspects we are slowplaying him. We can easily fold the turn u/i if he bets again.

I wasnt so sure that the Aces were clean. That was kind of the deciding factor that caused me to fold.

Do you really count a backdoor draw if it's drawing to a gutshot straight? (because Im probally not getting odds to call on it if I have the gutshot straight on the turn, I'll only have 4 outs on it at that point)

I usually count a backdoor draw as one out (if it's drawing to something with 8 or 9 outs on the turn), Im not sure what to do with it if it's drawing to something backdoor?

Im not saying im the authority on that, I just wasnt sure about it. I suppose you can count them as half of an out. So I have 2 outs with the backdoor draw, and maybe if I count all the dirty outs Im getting close to odds to at least peel a card here. Maybe you are right.

[Nick C]

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[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I think it's fine. Villain probably has KQ or something and is testing out his king. Or maybe he's got TT and is trying to represent the king. Either way, you're behind.

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Could we not peel a card here? Getting 1:8.5, aces are probably clean, queens questionable, some backdoors (flush, hollywood and wheel). Possibly get a free card if UTG suspects we are slowplaying him. We can easily fold the turn u/i if he bets again.

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Folding and peeling both seem okay to me, really. I don't really like the flop very much, but the backdoor flush would make me tempted to call.

Plus, I do think it's better for metagame purposes if we don't 3-bet preflop and then fold to a single bet on the flop. And if I actually had AK or AA, I might just call on the flop, so peeling with a hand as weak as AQ does complement that, and like you point out, the call might scare UTG.

[Nick C]

To answer your other question, a donk-bet usually refers to a lead on either the turn or river after a check-call on the previous street.

I have seen people describe a flop bet as a donk-bet on occasion too, though. I guess maybe leading into a PFR (or, in this case, preflop 3-bettor) falls into sort of a fuzzy area that to some people call a donk-bet while others don't.

Anyway, it's not like we can look it up in the dictionary.

[W. Deranged]

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Yeah, I think it's fine. Villain probably has KQ or something and is testing out his king. Or maybe he's got TT and is trying to represent the king. Either way, you're behind.

[/ QUOTE ]
Could we not peel a card here? Getting 1:8.5, aces are probably clean, queens questionable, some backdoors (flush, hollywood and wheel). Possibly get a free card if UTG suspects we are slowplaying him. We can easily fold the turn u/i if he bets again.

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I think we have to greatly consider the possibility of AK here as many won't cap AK in this spot but will bet out with it here. It's very unlikely we have 6 pair outs here; I think we have like 4.5 outs or something in general (so a call is almost okay), but the problem that we'll hit an lose with some frequency and can never be too confident about any holding (save the flush) means I don't like peeling here.

If I do call here it'd probably be in a live game and for metagame considerations.

[krimson]

I think aces are clean pretty often. AK/KK will often cap pre-flop, and A5/A2 is unlikely to have raised pre-flop.

If he did get here with AK, I think he would have taken a stronger line on the flop and c/r'd us, risking it getting checked through due to the strength of his hand. The fact that he is leading into our PFR makes me think he has a more questionable hand, and is testing the waters. Such as a weaker K like KQ/KJ or a PP like 88-JJ.

Your definitely correct about the backdoor gutshots being questionable as outs, as they leave us in a tricky situation. Basically, if we did manage to pick up a gutshot on the turn, I think we have 7-8 outs to draw to. (4 clean straight outs, 2-3 for the ace and 1-2 for the Q). We'll get about 1:5 on a call so it's definitely razor thin, but I think it can be done profitably.

The odds are razor thin, but you'll find every so often that villian was completely full of [censored], and will check the river allowing you to check behind and showdown the winner.

[krimson]

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I think we have to greatly consider the possibility of AK here as many won't cap AK in this spot but will bet out with it here. It's very unlikely we have 6 pair outs here; I think we have like 4.5 outs or something in general (so a call is almost okay), but the problem that we'll hit an lose with some frequency and can never be too confident about any holding (save the flush) means I don't like peeling here.

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Your right, i think i'm getting used to the aggression level of AK being a standard cap. I would still err towards him having a hand like KJ/KQ 88-JJ more so then AK though.

[Rootabager]

I think it's a pretty easy fold.