Two Plus Two Older Archives  

Go Back   Two Plus Two Older Archives > Other Topics > Science, Math, and Philosophy

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-19-2005, 04:11 PM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default The Anguish of Nonbelievers

This is for those who know the truth. They have reasoned it out. God doesn't exist in face of a formidable population who believe God may or does.

You're still human, and you have feelings. You feel sympathy if a young girl is raped and murdered. You know her parents will never see their baby again. This must sadden you, so you share the anguish, sometimes even more than with a believer who can rationalize an afterlife. But that's life, it is sometimes sad. That doesn't change the truth you know, and they don't.

Now maybe they can try to ignore these ignorants. However you must come across them. These people have to be regularly dealt with. Religion has been brainwashed into the workplace, schools, media, government, family, friends, loved ones, and even the month of December (which some of you participate in). It has been a persistent theme throughout history and across various cultures. So much time and energy has been wasted on a lie. This is not reasonable, rational, nor productive. How does it feel to know you in live in a world where a lie is so strong that a majority of people have fallen for it? Don't you know someone you care for enough to reach out and speak the truth to them?

If you care for others, it may lead to teaching this truth against a man who lived 2000 years ago. Interestingly enough, this man is known as someone who also spoke the truth. This may drive some crazy. As often as you can convince someone, you see others that have betrayed your position. Some of these people are actually intelligent. You've judged some of them to be equal or even smarter then yourself. They know what you know. Shouldn't they know better? To figure this out. Ask yourself, why is it you can't convince intelligent, rational people that they believe in a lie?

Now some of you nonbelievers aren't smart enough to outreason an intelligent believer. Do you leave it up to more intelligent nonbelievers? Do you blindly believe the nonbeliever, or must you be able to reason along the same lines? Do you commit heresy, and put your belief in a genius if you're not sure they're speaking the truth.

Some of these nonbelievers give up. Some go into denial or become ignorant themselves. They are unable and unwilling to discuss it any longer. Some actually become irrational, spewing statements like "well if God does exist, I'd rather burn than believe".

Others become semi-nonbelievers (or semi-believers?). Yes, it's unlikely God exists. The suffer a new anguish. Many of these people face the distress of wasting so much of their only life trying to discover an often elusive answer. This time could be better spent. However, the price to pay if God exists is now so great if they continue holding their 'unlikely, but not impossible' stance. It would unreasonable to not investigate it further. This investigation may be fruitless or it may cause them to believe in the lie that they once stood against.

It is a tragedy or an anguish to be able to speak the truth and have people hear you speak falsely. This is true no matter what position you hold. I thought DS was being bias when I didn't see The Anguish of Nonbelievers. I figured everyone has some, so this is a new perspective to help complete the Angush threads.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-19-2005, 05:30 PM
spaminator101 spaminator101 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: wondering where in the world I left my sweet tea
Posts: 581
Default Re: The Anguish of Nonbelievers

How can you say that religion was brainwahed into schools when it was the basis of early schools in america. Until the 1960s it remained this way.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-19-2005, 05:38 PM
Jacob_Gilliam Jacob_Gilliam is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 196
Default Re: The Anguish of Nonbelievers

The problem is that non-believers rarely question thier ideological system, so there is very little anguish involved. Many non-believers spend no time whatsoever thinking about whether God exists, so your concerns don't bother them. Believers, because they spend much time considering what God wants from them, often think that non-believers also spend a lot of time thinking about such things. But it usually isn't true.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-19-2005, 05:42 PM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: The Anguish of Nonbelievers

[ QUOTE ]
How can you say that religion was brainwahed into schools when it was the basis of early schools in america. Until the 1960s it remained this way.

[/ QUOTE ] Are you saying religion doesn't influence schools today? I'd say there are people who believe that Creationism is a bunch of BS that religious zealots are pushing into some school systems. I bet some people think of it as brainwashing. You may disagree, but do you see it's possible that others do in fact have this perspective?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-19-2005, 05:43 PM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: The Anguish of Nonbelievers

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is that non-believers rarely question thier ideological system, so there is very little anguish involved. Many non-believers spend no time whatsoever thinking about whether God exists, so your concerns don't bother them. Believers, because they spend much time considering what God wants from them, often think that non-believers also spend a lot of time thinking about such things. But it usually isn't true.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. As I stated:
[ QUOTE ]
Some of these nonbelievers give up. Some go into denial or become ignorant themselves. They are unable and unwilling to discuss it any longer.

[/ QUOTE ]
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-19-2005, 05:59 PM
Jacob_Gilliam Jacob_Gilliam is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 196
Default Re: The Anguish of Nonbelievers

But the non-believers don't give up. They don't feel compelled to discuss it because they see the discussion as pointless. They are not denying a God in the face of compelling information, but rather due to the lack of evidence feel that discussing such things is a mute point, for most people will not change thier belief system. For all the instances of people saying that they've been saved, the vast majority of people will continue on with the the same belief system they've had since childhood, regardless of what said belief system is.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-19-2005, 06:07 PM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: The Anguish of Nonbelievers

I quoted three sentences. Ignorance & unwillingness would apply to these people. I'd suspect inability also.

Basically they're no smarter or rational than those who some would say have been brainwashed by religion.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-19-2005, 06:33 PM
spaminator101 spaminator101 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: wondering where in the world I left my sweet tea
Posts: 581
Default Re: The Anguish of Nonbelievers

Yes but there is less influence than there was earlier in our nations history.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-19-2005, 06:39 PM
David Sklansky David Sklansky is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 241
Default Re: The Anguish of Nonbelievers

Good post. Here's where I stand on some of these points.

"This must sadden you, so you share the anguish, sometimes even more than with a believer who can rationalize an afterlife."

Exceptionally true. And by itself a strong refutation to those who think that most nonbelievers feel the way they do because it helps them pshychologically.

"So much time and energy has been wasted on a lie. This is not reasonable, rational, nor productive."

That irks me big time. BluffTHIS comments that he is more interested in the afterlife than in curing cancer would bother me even if I thought there WAS an afterlife. It is insane if there isn't.

"Some of these people are actually intelligent. You've judged some of them to be equal or even smarter then yourself. They know what you know. Shouldn't they know better? To figure this out. Ask yourself, why is it you can't convince intelligent, rational people that they believe in a lie?"

I am now quite sure that intelligent believers have a syndrome similar to stroke victims who think they are not paralyzed. However I also believe that people who are highly intelligent or highly trained in logic and statistical inference, are often able to overcome this syndrome.

"Now some of you nonbelievers aren't smart enough to outreason an intelligent believer."

Guess what. No unintelligent person should be a serious non believer! If he is, it is for the wrong reasons. Because God wouldn't allow tsunamis or because God wouldn't hate gays, etc. etc. The better arguments against a personal God are scientifically and mathematically not easy to understand. A low IQ person is very unlikely to have followed the reasoning. It is not at all clear to me that the world would be a better place if people didn't believe in a personal God. It would only be a better place if very smart people didn't.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-19-2005, 07:18 PM
DougShrapnel DougShrapnel is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 55
Default Re: The Anguish of Nonbelievers

[ QUOTE ]
It is not at all clear to me that the world would be a better place if people didn't believe in a personal God. It would only be a better place if very smart people didn't.

[/ QUOTE ] Why is it that the world gets a benefit if the less intelligent among us believe in something that isn't true? And if it's true that the world benefits from less intelligent persons believing in god. Is it possible to separate the placebotic effects from religon?

Your last statement is one that I would agree with only if it wasn't possible to deterime the benefits of a flase religion and then suplant them in a non religious context.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.