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  #31  
Old 10-29-2004, 07:18 PM
SossMan SossMan is offline
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[ QUOTE ]
Okie doke.

Can you explain your thought process behind the 55 vs. AK hand with Josh Arieh when you checked in the dark?

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I figured this hand would come up. The check in the dark is basically a move that helps you pick up "tells" on your opponent, without comprimising position. Mainly I want to see how he comes out, is he betting, is he checking, does he look weak, strong, etc.. So by me auto-checking, im now putting the ball in my opponents court without him having any clue as to what I could be holding. I figured if I don't flop a set, im not really sure where I stand. So basically, I was going to defer my move, and then counter any move made by Josh. A check in the dark works the best with medium to low pairs and suited connectors. In this situation the check in the dark did work out wonderfully. It's not a play that I highly suggest, its just something that I did because I think I did get caught up in the moment. It was by no means me trying to show off or be cocky.

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this analysis is very incomplete without knowing stack sizes...that makes a huuuuuuge difference in whether or not the dark check was a good play or not. I suspect that you had too high a percentage of your chips in the pot preflop for the dark check to give you enough implied odds to hit a perfect flop (which you did...A5x, Josh holding AK).
The fact that he put you all in on the flop leads me to believe that the pot represented somewhere in the neighborhood of at least a quarter of your stack, if not more (since Josh probably doesn't overbet the pot the pot there with TPTK).
By checking in the dark, you gave up your only other way to win the hand...by firing on a flop that had only 1 or 2 non-face card overcards (assuming you put him on unpaired Face-face or Ace face).

As far as the A4 final hand....if you put him on unpaired overcards, you really should have put a raise in there on the flop or at a minimum, on the turn....your hand is much, much too vulnerable to allow him to keep peeling off cards.

Again, without a good idea of stack sizes, all this analysis is pretty useless.

Again, welcome...


-SossMan
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  #32  
Old 10-29-2004, 07:19 PM
deuces09 deuces09 is offline
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SossMan:
DW had approximately 1.5 million in chips, committing 1/3 (500k) PF with the 55. Arieh had DW well covered.
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  #33  
Old 10-29-2004, 07:26 PM
sketchy1 sketchy1 is offline
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dave, i don't think anyone is questioning the check in the dark. i like the move given the situation. i don't generally check dark, just because it takes my option of betting first at the pot. also, if this flop came favorable but not great for you, say... 3 rags, you would probably want to fire out here. if you feel you had the best hand on a favorable flop, i don't think with 3 rags up josh is going to fire into a pot when you're 1/3 of the way in with just AK.

the real question is why you called the hand to begin with. i am not a seasoned pro nor do i even claim to be as good as you (hell, i have no idea how good you are, because i have yet to play with you, i've only seen a few dozen hands on tv), but i don't like calling 1/3 of my chips with a hand that is at best a cointoss favorite. you know that josh is a very aggressive player, but he could easily be firing back with any pair, or any big ace. so, i would have had no problem getting away from 5's when he reraised. i would either want to pick up the blinds, or get a call and flop a set and hope to double up.

when you called 1/3 of your chips off, let's say you don't flop a 5. the flop is the same, and josh has top pair top kicker, and all you have is 3rd pair to the board. now what do you do? you've committed 500k of your 1.5m, and you're now looking at an ace high flop with pocket 5's. if he bets all-in, you're getting 3-1 to call with your 5's i believe, if my rough math in my mind is right. obviously you could fold them on that flop, but why would you have called off that many chips instead of either just moving them all-in or folding? all-in or fold to me is the only way to play this pot.

maybe i am off base and you can explain it to me better, but that's my thoughts.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Okie doke.

Can you explain your thought process behind the 55 vs. AK hand with Josh Arieh when you checked in the dark?

[/ QUOTE ]

I figured this hand would come up. The check in the dark is basically a move that helps you pick up "tells" on your opponent, without comprimising position. Mainly I want to see how he comes out, is he betting, is he checking, does he look weak, strong, etc.. So by me auto-checking, im now putting the ball in my opponents court without him having any clue as to what I could be holding. I figured if I don't flop a set, im not really sure where I stand. So basically, I was going to defer my move, and then counter any move made by Josh. A check in the dark works the best with medium to low pairs and suited connectors. In this situation the check in the dark did work out wonderfully. It's not a play that I highly suggest, its just something that I did because I think I did get caught up in the moment. It was by no means me trying to show off or be cocky.

[/ QUOTE ]
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  #34  
Old 10-29-2004, 07:30 PM
deuces09 deuces09 is offline
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[ QUOTE ]
maybe i am off base

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense, but extremely. You can take math and make this call in a cash game, but there is zero way you could call 55 on a flop of 2JK, 48T, ATQ, etc. etc. etc. unless you had ungodly-good reading skills.

If he doesn't hit the 5 and Arieh moves in, he has to fold. Simple as that.

Now, that said, DW was hanging around on a smallish stack for what seemed like the last 2 days until he got the best of Dean and Harrington. So perhaps the fact he was managing himself well with such a small stack lead to him taking such a risky gamble?
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  #35  
Old 10-29-2004, 07:40 PM
Philuva Philuva is offline
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[ QUOTE ]
dave, i don't think anyone is questioning the check in the dark.

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I think that is exactly what everyone is questioning.
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  #36  
Old 10-29-2004, 09:03 PM
sketchy1 sketchy1 is offline
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[ QUOTE ]
If he doesn't hit the 5 and Arieh moves in, he has to fold. Simple as that.

[/ QUOTE ]

he's calling 1/3 of his stack for a set. he's not exactly getting the right odds here to call. he played the pot only to flop a set, unless he was willing to make a gamble and call on a "safe" flop.
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  #37  
Old 10-29-2004, 09:14 PM
deuces09 deuces09 is offline
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[ QUOTE ]
he's calling 1/3 of his stack for a set. he's not exactly getting the right odds here to call.

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True, which is why pushing or folding on the flop ought to be the only real options against Arieh.

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He played the pot only to flop a set, unless he was willing to make a gamble and call on a "safe" flop.

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Whatever safe flop exists when you miss your 5 (such as 234, or 3 of a suit to match one of your fives) is too rare an occurance to rationally call and see a flop.
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  #38  
Old 10-30-2004, 12:30 AM
Big Jon Big Jon is offline
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Default Re: First Post

[ QUOTE ]
I figured this hand would come up. The check in the dark is basically a move that helps you pick up "tells" on your opponent, without comprimising position. Mainly I want to see how he comes out, is he betting, is he checking, does he look weak, strong, etc.. So by me auto-checking, im now putting the ball in my opponents court without him having any clue as to what I could be holding. I figured if I don't flop a set, im not really sure where I stand. So basically, I was going to defer my move, and then counter any move made by Josh. A check in the dark works the best with medium to low pairs and suited connectors. In this situation the check in the dark did work out wonderfully. It's not a play that I highly suggest, its just something that I did because I think I did get caught up in the moment. It was by no means me
trying to show off or be cocky.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know that in poker we always try not to be results oriented, but considering you doubled-through that bastard Arieh, that was absolutely the right play.

I swear if I ever have the displeasure of meeting that guy in real life I'm going to stomp his guts out.
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  #39  
Old 10-30-2004, 04:38 AM
sketchy1 sketchy1 is offline
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Default Re: First Post

[ QUOTE ]
True, which is why pushing or folding on the flop ought to be the only real options against Arieh.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, then we're in agreement [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
Whatever safe flop exists when you miss your 5 (such as 234, or 3 of a suit to match one of your fives) is too rare an occurance to rationally call and see a flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed again
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  #40  
Old 11-01-2004, 09:06 PM
Crosby Crosby is offline
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Hey everyone, I just talked to Dave on AIM today, and this 2+2 DaveWilliams isn't him. He asked me to post to let everyone know that he's not going to be posting online, so this guy and any future imposters are not him. Thanks.
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