5-10 big pot at the Bike

[riverboatking]

villian in this hand is a very tough/tricky pro, has a WSOP bracelet (in stud hi/low), is by far the best player on the table, and has me way covered.
he is a little steamed after losing a couple big pots, but i don't think this guy ever goes on tilt.

my image at this point is fairly solid. i've been showing down quality hands, however i have shown a willingness to semi/bluff.

i feel as though i am a better player then most at the table, and have been winning fairly easily in the game, the pro is really the only one i don't want to tangle with.

ok on to the hand.
i'm in the BB w/J5 and ~2.5K. villain is on the button and has around 6K.
4 limpers to me and i check.

Pot: $50.

flop J52 rainbow.

i lead for 50 all fold to villian who makes it 150.
i call quickly.

turn comes 3 still rainbow.

i check, villian bets 400, i think for a minute and call.

river comes 9.

i check, villian takes a chip off his cards like he is going to check, i take my chip off my cards ready to showdown, he sees this and goes back to his stack.

he bets 700.

i call.

thoughts, comments?

[DanK]

I think you should rerais on the flop to 400 or so. I think It's important for you to find out if he is on a set, and this is the best way to do it. Otherwise you will be calling down large bets drawing very slim. As the hand played out, it seems like he diden't have the set you might be worried about, but reraising and then leading the turn for 5-600 (if he just calls on the flop) is what I would do. if he raises any of these bets again I think it's now a safe fold. This way you save the bet(or your stack) you might call on the river when you are beat. What do you guys think of this line?

[BK_]

if you wernt planning to call down, calling quickly on the flop was probably a mistake vs a good player. im sure you would give it a bit more thought with a set. by the end, he can pretty solidly put you on a mediocre 2 pair or possibly even JA, which is no good for you.

[Utah]

I think you push the turn here. If you call, there is approx 1100 in the pot. Your allin raise is a nice 1.5x times the pot (approx.). I dont see how he can call. The only hand that scares you is 2,2 and that is very unlikely given his play - i.e., why would he try to push you off on the flop with 3 raggedly cards? I am guessing he has J,X, Q,Q or a mid-pair.

If you just call the turn, then there are a lot of cards you dont like to see on the river - any overcard or a 4.

Come to think of it, I would probably have reraised the flop given the shakey holdings.

[BK_]

oops wrong hand

[riverboatking]

ok here is some of what i was thinking.
i didn't put villian on AJ because i had seen him try and clear the field of limpers earlier with a similar hand in position, so i didn't think he'd be limping with that.
therefore he either had me crushed with 2-2, or was drawing to three outs.
i was originally going to C/R the river but then when it came down to 400 for some reason i found myself calling. the stacks were still pretty deep, and i guess i was trying not to pot commit myself against the toughest opponent on the table, in an unraised pot, with motown.
i felt like if i C/R his bet he was dumping everything but 2-2, and since there were no draws i was worried about i decided on just calling. one thing i forgot to mention in the original post was that the villian was very capable of laying down big hands (not set big, but i'd seen him dump top two earlier) however other then the set there weren't really any hands i was too worried about.

on the river i thought about a blocking bet, however i decided that that would look to suspicous to this guy, who would probably tell i didn't like my hand too much.

i think the only reason he fired on the river was because he saw me take my chip off my cards prematurely.

does anyone like leading on the river trying to get a call from QJ or J10?

how about raising the river?

[daryl logan]

I think your analysis is pretty solid, however what would make you think that if he is the best player in the game, that he would decide to make a big bluff at you becuase you make a clear reverse tell of taking your chips off your cards?

I say he picked up 2 pair on the river holding 9-2, and thought he could suck a lot of money out of you if you slowplayed QQ, KK, AA or may still call suspecting a bluff on AJ or worse.

[riverboatking]

[ QUOTE ]
I think your analysis is pretty solid, however what would make you think that if he is the best player in the game, that he would decide to make a big bluff at you becuase you make a clear reverse tell of taking your chips off your cards?

[/ QUOTE ]

the thing is it was a pretty unconscious action. he took his chips off his cards and i honestly thought he was about to showdown, i was not trying to give a reverse tell, and i didn't think he was making a bluff.

i didn't think he had a set, and at first i thought he had a hand like QJ or KJ, and was value betting becuase he would have thought that with two pair i would have taken a more aggressive line.

however at the last second it occured to me that he might have J9, and so i just called.

it turned out he had 5-2 for a smaller flopped two pair.

obviously in retrospect reraising the flop or turn would have won me a bigger pot, however by the time the river came i don't think he's paying me off if i move in.

but i honestly don't know.

i guess the reason for my post, is that i was kind of at a lost for the best line here, and kind of got sucked into a check call line, which i'm not sure was the best way to play.

alot of how i played this hand was due to the fact that i felt like i could outplay pretty much everyone else at the table, and i just didn't want to play a big pot vs. the one guy who was much better then me.

i know this is a crappy way to think, and i'm just wondering what i should have done, or what you guys do in similar spots with deep stacks vs. very tough opponents.

i feel like if i would have reraised the flop i would have either had to play for my stack or fold.

with his bottom two, i think if i reraise the flop he either smooth calls me and then puts me in on the turn, or puts me in on the flop right there, and then i'm in a really tough spot because i have to decide if he has the set.

i just didn't want to play a big pot vs him, and was trying to keep the pot as small as i could, despite my positional disadvantage.

[daryl logan]

My other thoughts on this hand are that you have to remember to not get busted in an unraised pot. no way I'm committing $2.5K when I flop top 2 to a pot of $40... especially if you feel there are easier marks in the game than the pro.

You stress that there was only one player in the game you wanted to avoid ... and if you wanted to avoid him, why sit to his right?

[riverboatking]

[ QUOTE ]
You stress that there was only one player in the game you wanted to avoid ... and if you wanted to avoid him, why sit to his right?

[/ QUOTE ]

first of all i was sitting to his left...hence him being on the button and me being in the BB.
secondly, you can't always pick where you sit in a live game when you arrive at a full table.


[ QUOTE ]
My other thoughts on this hand are that you have to remember to not get busted in an unraised pot. no way I'm committing $2.5K when I flop top 2 to a pot of $40... especially if you feel there are easier marks in the game than the pro.

[/ QUOTE ]

while i understand the idea of not wanting to go broke in an unraised pot, i most certainly am not going to avoid playing a big pot in an unraised pot when i feel i have the best of it, and the pot was not at $40 for very long. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]