No. of Outs when counting them is most applicable???

I understand the concept of counting your outs to the best hand.

But, what number of outs (approx.) is this useful for?

I have read somewhere that you are really only needing to do this when you have a weak draw: 2-6 Outs?

Is this correct?

I'm asking becuase I am trying to learn a table of Outs V %'s. I want to start with a range of Outs that will be most useful.

Thanks,
Ian

[POKhER]

IDN101,

I think rather than memorising the outs in advanced i'd recommend just placing a chart in front of your PC.

You will use these so often that within a week you'll most likly have them remembered.

The time spent remembering these is better off spent reading post flop things, such as Free card play, Hang protection, Implied odds, Pot odds and whatever else.

Interms of what numbers are most used, Well its probably 2-9 outs.

Above 9 and we're talking flushdraw's and gutshots with clean overcards etc. We usually have enough pot odds in FULL RING to continue with these.

How are you progressing so far ian?
POKHER.

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How are you progressing so far ian?
POKHER.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not "too" bad thanks!

I have only been playing online for 1 week now.

I am really tightening up on hand selection.

I am skim reading SSH. Will then re-read in detail once I have an overview.

PLayed 800 hands and I'm $0.40 down ($0.02/0.04L). Going through quite big swings. I realise I'll need many more hands to give meaning to the stats.

My biggest problem is Post Flop!!! Big problem. I need to learn how to evaluate the strength of the hand I am holding. If I flop top pair I am too eager to raise to the river only to find myself sucked out.

I think I really need to learn when to fold post flop, and when I don't fold- I need to be sure it is profitable to carry on (win or lose Showdown)

I am right in my assumption that post-flop skill is 90% of the game???

Cheers,
Ian

Hey IDN101!

Not to jump into you and POHker's conversation but I wanted to comment on a couple of things you said. My comments are based on my experiences as a n00b.

Skimreading SSH first and then a detail read later is not g00t. I took me a full three detailed readings before I thought I understood all of the concepts another full reading and then multiple skims before I could really start succesully applying the principles w/in. I know there are others more adept at absorbing this info than me and it didn't take them nearly so long but regardless I think you need to start detailed.

I agree that flop strength evaluation is absolutely crucial. That chapter and the chapter on protecting your hand are for me, the absoulte core of SSH. I've spent more time analyzing the concepts in the made and drawing hands examples than anything else. When I play now I try to immediately put my hand into one of the categories and strengths based on my current holding, draws/redraws and board texture.

e.g. Hole: A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Flop: K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] = TPTK with an uncoordinated board = Very Strong Hand

And then think of what my plan of attack is: Bet/raise to protect, c/r, wait for turn, free card play, etc.

I hope this helps!

Here's a list of more or less common situations, their outs, and the % to hit (first one is after flop, second is after turn. If you don't think you'll see both cards, use only the after turn odds.). These should be committed to memory

Drawing to both a straight and a flush: 15 outs, 54.1, 32.6

Drawing to a flush with overcard to the board: 12 outs, 45, 26.1

Drawing to a flush: 9 outs, 35, 19.6

Drawing to open straight (i.e. both ends): 8 outs, 31.5, 17.4

Two overcards vs made pair: 6 outs, 24.1, 13

Hitting a pair on the flop, but being against higher pair: 5 outs, 20.3, 10.9

Drawing to inside straight (also applies to T-A and A-5):4 outs, 16.5, 8.7

One overcard against made pair: 3 outs, 12.5, 6.5

Pocket pair against larger pocket pair: 2 outs, 8.4, 4.3
As far as post-flop play is concerned, your hand is important, but so is your opponents', as well as the perceptions of what they may be. EX: Trip aces are fine and will usually win, but with a straight or flush draw, they may not. Look on "both sides of the street" before deciding to cross.

GL

This is good Paulie. To the OP and others who may not have seen it, this is a kick-butt odds chart made by lost wages.

Just remember these odss are to the nuts. Be sure to discount as appropriate when not drawing to the nuts.

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Hey IDN101!

Not to jump into you and POHker's conversation but I wanted to comment on a couple of things you said. My comments are based on my experiences as a n00b.



[/ QUOTE ]

Your comments are most welcome and most appreciated- as are anyone's, who can give me pointers in the direction!

Many thanks,
Ian

I don't know if this is much help but I tend to use this method as its easier for my simple mind. Phil Gordon wrote about the the Rules of Two and Four a while back. If you can count outs pretty well then this will get a close approximation of your % to draw to your hand.

After the flop, count your outs and multiply them by 4. This actually gets you damn close to the actual %. After the turn count your outs and multiply by 2. This is a little farther off but usually within 1 or 2 percent. Hope this helps.

[POKhER]

Read SSH first once through, don't skim read it... actually attempt to digest it. Dont go into depth or try apply the things after this first read though just play your standard game and think "well can i raise for a free card here? probably... SSH is starting to make sense now".

After you've read it once then go onto read it again but this time in detail. take each concept one by one and consider situations in your head and open PT and play some hands through to see if you could of applied a free card play to that certain hand.

If your not sure, then thats what the forums for. Post and say "Can i raise he for a free card? Do i have enough outs?" you may be told yes and then you can question the person as to why ... or even better... you get told no and learn more.

As you go through each chapter begin to apply these to your game.

Once you've read the whole book, start it again. Or go to a chapter you feel you didn't fully understand.

For me it was the "Free card play". on my 1st read and 2nd read i still didn't fully understand it. Infact i missed one word "Outs" which confused the hell out of me!

It basically said if you have outs to continue then do this xxxxxxx.

Having missed that word i was thinking "So do we do it when im getting 10 to 1 and i have 2 outs? or do we need 4+ outs? ".

I re-read it again and then understood it.

Experience
So you re-read it and you learn all these magical concepts, but knowing if you should call the flop vs Mr 60/20/4 or raise for a free card is still a tough one.

this is where logging thousands of hands comes in, and as with many posters here... after 10 000 hands we read SSH and understood a bit. After 50 000 we read SSH and understood a HELL OF ALOT MORE.

Infact last night i read SSH and i now feel i have enough to experience to fully understand alot of if not all the concepts in the book.

However even now, i still fail to use the free card play enough when i should. I still fail to value bet in some situations and i still fail to protect my hand.

So continue to grind, experience will make SSH EAISER TO UNDERSTAND.

Apply one concept at a time and build upon a solid foundation. Should you not understand a concept post here.

if you post hands here, people will often say "this is WA/WB so you should..." or "you should have bet folded the river because he...". These things will be confusing so dont attempt to understand them as you have the basics to learn but do not disregaurd them.

You will eventually "click" and you'll read SSH again and say "Yeah that makes sense, so today when i played that 77 pair Heads up i should have bet the turn as it was a monotone flop and he could of have a naked ace on a flush draw... so i needed to protect it and charge him to draw".

The above ^^ is what i was thinking whilst trying to get some sleep at 3am last night [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img].

then when you do play a hand, and apply hand protection then post it even though you lost the hand and get told "Perfecxt" or "Id of raised it you couldnt protect..." you'll learn the finer details.

you're off to a better start than 90% of people here IMO but progress will be slow at these micros. Just put the time into playing BUT DO NOT IGNORE STUDYING YOUR GAME AND REVIEWING SESSIONS.



Post flop is 10x more important than preflop
This is my opinion and my be challenged by others so we shall see.

For now i'd download the SSH chart PDF file that can be found on here. Pin it to the wall and just follow it. I.e. "Im on button with AQs and eveyrones limped... Do i raise?*Checks chart* yes" ok *raises*.

I'm not saying dont attempt to learn it, but don't do as i did and re-read Preflop 10x before moving onto post flop. Preflop decisions dont matter much not and specially not at 0.02/.04 so you can re-learn preflop stuff later.

However post flop will apply RIGHT NOW and IN THE FUTURE and as SSH says.... Post flop is where you make the money!

So concentrate post flop, use a chart for preflop. Once you're happy you know postflop(this will take a while.. dont expect 1 month... it took me a while) then you can go to preflop but even then its debateable as i dont think there will come a point where your prefect post flop.

However there will come a time when your pretty dam good and then you can go to preflop and ditch the chart(Although by then you'll have experience and will have already understood the values of ATo vs QJs and why you limp certains hands here and raise them there and fold them vs this villan but 3bet vs the next villan) so it'll be easier to understand.

SO POST FLOP IS TO BE STUDIED, PREFLOP IS A FINER DETAIL Not to be ignored... But can be "put off" for a while yet and simply follow a chart for now(over time anyhow you'll adapt without realising as you become comfortable with post flop things)



If you have AIM or MSN pm me and ill add you and should you need any quick help i can offer to help you. Ill always recommend posting on 2+2 if im unsure myself.

POKhER.

[sthief09]

this is pretty much true. counting outs is basically only useful for close situations and bitching about when you miss a 15 outer