89s

Aces McGee · #1 09-23-2005, 11:17 AM

Hey crunchy...this one had me thinking quite a bit.

On the flop, I think the check is okay. Five ways, it's unlikely to get checked through, so you're not often going to be giving free cards to overs. But if the bet comes from late position, you can then raise and protect your hand a little bit. Since the bet came as early as it did, though, just calling is fine.

The turn is where I have questions. I'm not too worried that the jack has put you behind in the hand, but at this point you're probably committed to showing down, as long as it only costs you at most a bet on each street. Why not try to steal the pot from a better 8?

How to do it is the question. A check-raise may be more convincing than a bet, but it also could get expensive.

I like betting out, although it may be an unpopular line. If you're raised, you can dump it (although I suppose the fact that UTG+1 posted makes it a little more likely that you have some hidden outs against a goofy hand like 62), but it just may get a better 8 to fold.

If you're called, hmmm. I guess I still need to think about that. So maybe this plan kind of sucks after all. I should probably just not post this, but maybe it will garner some discussion.

-McGee

crunchy1 · #2 09-23-2005, 11:34 AM

This was close to my thinking. I was planning to c/r the flop but, when the bet came from the 2nd poster (and everyone called) I decided to call along and see the turn.

I think the turn is the really debateable street. I'm not sure that I like c/r-ing or leading because a raise behind me has a good chance of me making an incorrect play (whether that play is folding/calling/raising).

Aces McGee · #3 09-23-2005, 11:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
a raise behind me has a good chance of me making an incorrect play (whether that play is folding/calling/raising).

[/ QUOTE ]

what incorrect play are you worried about making? isn't your turn decision based on pot odds?

-McGee

crunchy1 · #4 09-23-2005, 11:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a raise behind me has a good chance of me making an incorrect play (whether that play is folding/calling/raising).

[/ QUOTE ]
what incorrect play are you worried about making? isn't your turn decision based on pot odds?

[/ QUOTE ]
Folding when I should've called; calling when I should've folded; calling when I should've raised.

If I get 3-bet after c/ring the turn I'm going to have correct odds to call to my trip/2-pair outs - but I've now put in 3BBs with the worst hand. One that might only have 3 outs (against a flush draw if player2 calls as well) in which case I'm making an incorrect call based purely on pot odds.

I guess when it came down to it I was so undecided about where I stood that check/calling seemed like the best option. I doubt a c/r was going to fold either player. The worst case would be missing value if they were drawing. OTOH - if I'm behind I'm drawing pretty thin (if not dead) but, with the chance that I've still got the best hand, I thought it was a situation where I could see the river for 1BB and then reevaluate.

Aces McGee · #5 09-23-2005, 12:09 PM

I don't like a turn checkraise nearly as much as just leading the turn for the reasons you give.

Does being raised on the turn face you with any tough decisions?

-McGee

crunchy1 · #6 09-23-2005, 12:15 PM

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Does being raised on the turn face you with any tough decisions?

[/ QUOTE ]
Tough decision - no. I think it's a pretty easy fold against an unknown.

Correct decision - therein lies my issue. I'm not sure what percentage we assign to an unknown bluff-raising the turn here.

Aces McGee · #7 09-23-2005, 12:18 PM

hmmm. Seems to me that if it's an easy decision, it has to be correct.

-McGee

Redd · #8 09-23-2005, 11:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This was close to my thinking. I was planning to c/r the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

In a small pot, is this really necessary? I usually reserve this sort of play for a 10-bet pot where leading doesn't protect my hand.

crunchy1 · #9 09-23-2005, 12:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This was close to my thinking. I was planning to c/r the flop

[/ QUOTE ]In a small pot, is this really necessary? I usually reserve this sort of play for a 10-bet pot where leading doesn't protect my hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think so because there's dead money from the posters and I've got a good chance to clean up a lot of outs if they're holding hands with any 1 card 10 or higher (i.e. Q3, K5 type hands).

Redd · #10 09-23-2005, 12:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This was close to my thinking. I was planning to c/r the flop

[/ QUOTE ]In a small pot, is this really necessary? I usually reserve this sort of play for a 10-bet pot where leading doesn't protect my hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think so because there's dead money from the posters and I've got a good chance to clean up a lot of outs if they're holding hands with any 1 card 10 or higher (i.e. Q3, K5 type hands).

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you want them to fold a 3-outer in a 6.5SB pot? Their calls are profitable for you by the FTOP.

Conversely, giving a free card on the off chance that it gets checked around will usually cost you money.