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  #51  
Old 12-22-2005, 02:59 PM
Gunny Highway Gunny Highway is offline
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Default Re: Civil War arguments

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I can't believe so much sympathy is given to a group of rebels that chose to wage war on our country. Disgusting.

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This is just laughable. Wage war? The South was attacked. Even after they were attacked, the South fought an almost entirely defensive war.
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  #52  
Old 12-22-2005, 03:09 PM
peritonlogon peritonlogon is offline
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Default Re: Athenian Democracy circa Pericles\' time

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Do you think everyone born in the United States should have to sign onto the Constitution before it applies to them?

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Sounds good to me.

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And to me too.

In fact, it has been my personal conviction that being the free citizen of a polity should be a matter of choice and not of privilege or mandate. People who reach a certain pre-determined age should be allowed to choose, on an all-or-nothing basis, whether or not to accept the polity's laws and rules. It goes without saying that this would also mean accepting a number of obligations, such as taking up arms to defend the polity.

Of course, as soon as the people become citizens, they will have, like every other citizen, the right not just to change the government and the people's representation in it, but to question or try to change the very rules and laws of the polity!

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It's kind of amazing that this is the argument for how things "should" be... I'm pretty sure that this is how things are. By sticking around, ie, not emigrating, you are accepting the polity's laws and rules. It's usually referred to as a tacit choice, or an implied choice.

What you described in your last sentence is what people normally call taking part in free speech/assembly/association and voting.

The fact that so many people yern for a feeling of citizenship indicates to me two things (that aren't necessarily mutually exclusive) the reason for this I don't really have room to spell out.

1) Individualism in America (for whatever reason) has become simply become a justification for selfishness. People routinely mistake freedom and liberty with autonomy and, and they seem to think that they should be free to take from the common weal without being bound to contribute.

2)The "Democratic" nature of America and Americans is really heading towards exitinction.
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  #53  
Old 12-22-2005, 03:21 PM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Re: Civil War arguments

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It is not morally justifiable to have a civil war over slavery unless slaves were being slaughtered themselves, which they were not.

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I know you are making an argument according to catholic teachings on just war, and that the means/casualties must be proportionate to the injustice to be fought over. But the enslavement of human beings in fact slaughters their dignity as children of God. Furthermore, defrauding a laborer of his just wages, which is certainly the case here, is one of the sins that "cries out to heaven for vengence".

And you might read my earlier posts in this thread with quotes by Lincoln that involve God's judgement on slavery.
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  #54  
Old 12-22-2005, 03:57 PM
Peter666 Peter666 is offline
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Default Re: Civil War arguments

Having 600,000 good men killed over perceived unjust wages and "human dignity" is still not justifiable. This is especially in light of the fact that slavery around the world was in its dying stages. Furthermore, the imprudent war of Northern aggression, a violation of the Constitution led to many other great evils such as:

- the destruction of a morally superior agricultural society by a morally inferior industrialized society

- a modern conception and undertaking of total war as shown by Sherman's march

- plus the rise of racist organizations such as the KKK post war

The sum total of the evil effect that came out of the Civil War is completely disproportionate to any good that came out of it. This was shrewdly perceived by Pope Pius IX who recognized the Confederacy for the legitimate government that it was.
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  #55  
Old 12-22-2005, 04:08 PM
peritonlogon peritonlogon is offline
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Default Re: Civil War arguments

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Having 600,000 good men killed over perceived unjust wages and "human dignity" is still not justifiable. This is especially in light of the fact that slavery around the world was in its dying stages. Furthermore, the imprudent war of Northern aggression, a violation of the Constitution led to many other great evils such as:

- the destruction of a morally superior agricultural society by a morally inferior industrialized society

- a modern conception and undertaking of total war as shown by Sherman's march

- plus the rise of racist organizations such as the KKK post war

The sum total of the evil effect that came out of the Civil War is completely disproportionate to any good that came out of it. This was shrewdly perceived by Pope Pius IX who recognized the Confederacy for the legitimate government that it was.

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Is this a joke?
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  #56  
Old 12-22-2005, 04:14 PM
Peter666 Peter666 is offline
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Default Re: Civil War arguments

Yeah, a very funny one. Either contribute of stick your head back in your ass.
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  #57  
Old 12-22-2005, 04:19 PM
peritonlogon peritonlogon is offline
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Default Re: Civil War arguments

I was serious.... and I still don't know.... was it a joke?
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  #58  
Old 12-22-2005, 04:29 PM
The Don The Don is offline
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Default Re: Civil War arguments

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From a utilitarian point of view, it was in the Union's best interest to keep the south in the United States.

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Why?

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I highly doubt that the United States would be as powerful as it is now if it had not preserved the union.

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Oh, okay... that's why. So you think that a powerful government is good for the utility of the people. For the moment, I will assume that interpersonal utility comparisions are feasible and that the concept of "ultilitarianism" has validity. You appear to be aware that the Civil War set the precedent for "big government." This means state forced involuntary servitude (conscription), an increase in coercive theft of property (taxes), and the many ineffecient government monopolies (run by bureaucracies). So you are telling me that society is better off because of these things? Death induced by slavery, extortion of funds, and the uniformity and inefficiency of government monopoly are REALLY good for society.

Now, given that it is a fact that interpersonal utility comparisions are not possible (humans are not homogenous)... imagine these things from the perspective of the individual?
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  #59  
Old 12-22-2005, 04:43 PM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Re: Civil War arguments

Peter, you are really losing your grip. You place 600,000 dead versus the millions enslaved and who also often were treated harshly or killed at the whim of their owners. You posit that an agricultural society is morally superior (WTF?). And you attribute the rise of the KKK which oppressed and lynched blacks as an evil worse than the enslavement of those black slaves. All this shows that your value system and anlystical skills are in need of adjustment.
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  #60  
Old 12-22-2005, 04:53 PM
The Don The Don is offline
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Default Re: Civil War arguments

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You don't have a right to violate others' rights. That's the whole point - nobody has a right to *impose* upon *you*. Similarly, you have no right to impose murder or rape upon another. Your argument is exactly my argument, though you get it backwards.

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Okay, then, where do rights come from? The Lockian argument is that there are natural rights to life, liberty, and property, but I do not believe that. It seems to me that we would first have to agree that there are such rights to begin with, and I do not agree that there is. If I do not agree that the rights to life, liberty, and property are actually natural, then how can your concept of "rights" stop me from taking your life, liberty, or property?

I did not read the Liberterian Creed, but by the sound of the don's post, it sounds like it is a Lockian argument.

I am, of course, speaking hypothetically. I am not a Lockian, but I will still use his principles againt you when it serves my interests [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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Please read the Rothbard chapter. He logically explains why property rights are consistent with human nature and the reality of human existence. I mean, expand upon the alternative--the right of every human to exert force on other--and see where that leads.

You assert that without formal law, everyone would start using force because there would be no state to prevent them. It is only rational to assume that by using force, one expects force to be used on them in return. Therefore, in every thread you seem to imply that humans want force to be exerted upon them. I contend that this is not the case. Some people will always choose to use force, regardless of the presence of the state. The other people, who are against this use of force, will demand restitution against those who use it. You seem to be implying that the former will overwhelm the latter. I contend that this is contradictory to human nature.
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