and in this corner.....weighing 265 pounds..Folding Equity!!!!!

[A_PLUS]

A friend asked me for a line from this hand in a live 18-man tournament we played.

Hero BB (2000)
SB (650) solid player so far
MP (1000) blah passive player
LP (1500) bad player

15-30 Blinds

Hero Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

MP calls, LP calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop (120) A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

SB leads for 100......

I think this is an interesting hand, b/c we have a lot of factors to consider. Namely, do we want to play this to maximize our folding equity? Get as many callers as possible? We have a lot of options.

I will post my line when I see what you guys and gals think.

I think I call here. If one of the bigger stacks raises and shorty folds, you can push over that, and if one/both of them call, you're in great shape. The only annoying situations is if shorty gets it all in behind you. Seeing a turn with just the SB isn't that bad either.

Maximize folding equity? Why on earth would hero want anyone to fold here? Hero wants everyone calling all the way around on every street here. There are so many cards that help hero's hand that I'd be willing to play for my whole stack in this spot.

I'm calling the 100 hoping that it gets overcalls behind me here. I want this pot to get big but I think there's more value in calling than raising here. If there is no raise behind me here I'll look to get one in on the turn. Nobody behind me has a stack that threatens me so I'm willing to play back at a raise behind me on this flop. If there's a raise from a player left to act behind me I'm 3-betting all in on the flop. With 15 outs, many of them giving me the absolute nuts, I'm fine with playing for anyone's whole stack here and I know I can't bust on this hand.

[LearnedfromTV]

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Maximize folding equity? Why on earth would hero want anyone to fold here? Hero wants everyone calling all the way around on every street here.

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You want everyone calling the flop. Whether you want them to call on the turn and river depends on what happens. It's easy to say get it allin on the flop. What if they don't let you? Also, 15 outs twice is only a slight favorite against an A. Once the pot builds, you want the A to fold, even though you have greater equity.

[ansky451]

I would call and pray someone raises behind me. I don't like raising now because we allow people behind us to just play perfect poker. They will call with 2 pr or better and fold worse hands.

[LearnedfromTV]

[ QUOTE ]
I would call and pray someone raises behind me. I don't like raising now because we allow people behind us to just play perfect poker. They will call with 2 pr or better and fold worse hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Raising the flop just discourages weaker hands from coming (A jack, weaker draws) and puts you in the position of being the caller of an allin behind you. Not bad, nothing *bad* can happen on the flop action, but you'd rather get a raise from behind you, a call from the SB and then push over the top.

If no one raises behind you, the pot is manageable on the turn. With the right read you can semibluff push when you miss.

[schwza]

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MP (1000) blah passive player
LP (1500) bad player

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you really think either of these guys is folding a3?

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They will call with 2 pr or better and fold worse hands.



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BTW, a very important aspect of playing these hands is to put in the last bet. I think a big reason why this is a call and not a raise is because of how awkward the raise amount is. You could overbet push the shorty all in, but that makes things really awkard if either of the other stacks comes in. If they weren't here or if they had stacks like the shorty, I think this would be a push.

[winky51]

Ok heres one to shoot at you. I sat down and nodded my head to all the answers but then they all can't be right. So I stopped and put myself in the bad player shoes.

Now since we are sure SB has an ace whats the chance any of the bad players having an ace? Not too much. thats 3 aces out of 4 with 4 players at the table. So my guess is that none of them besides the SB has an ace.

So since none probably have an ace why would they call if you called? I think probably a draw only.

If they had 2 pair or better they would push anyways. Bad players push with 2 pair or better on drawing flops. They think "I got 2 pair, I better push so no one draws out on me".

So SB bets 100, we call and 1 donk calls with his draw, the SB will push on the turn for 550 into the pot of 420. So its 550 to win 970. Not correct odds on the turn to call. if I was SB and 2 players called that flop I'd guess my ace was good and push the turn. Even if they had me out kicked a lot of times the pot will be tied and I will at least get my money back.

So my conclusion is to raise 300.

Scenarios: SB bets you raise
A. No one wants to play, SB folds you win.
B. Donk has a hand and pushes, SB folds, you call with 15 outs, good! Figure the SB would realize he is beat by at least one and fold.
C. Donk calls with a draw, SB would push I think. SB might think the big stack is trying to push him out but because of pot odds he pushes, good now you push.
D. Donk calls with a draw, SB folds feeling he is beat. Turn comes you push, good. Most of the Donks draws are beat by your high card and him pairing makes you your draw, good!

If you call and a donk pushes the SB will probably fold my guess. Now you are heads up with the donk. if the donk just calls the SB will will push the turn and now you don't have odds.

I think raising gets you the best of all worlds.
You either win right there with the suspicious raise to 300 giving the SB equity to fold his weak ace. If the donk calls for a draw and the SB pushes you have enough to reraise all in and got dead money in the pot. If the SB folds you can push the turn and win vs the draw. You showed strength on the flop and on the turn. donk aint calling an all in with 1 card to come and if he is he's probably behind.

If for whatever reason the donk cold calls with 2 pair or a set he is giving you odds (CC because he is scared you have a biger set or 2 pair. Now on the turn SB goes all in you call and donk calls still giving you odds.

So I say raise 300 logical?

[woodguy]

I like the responses so far....interesting hand....next street please.

Regards,
Woodguy