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Old 12-29-2005, 05:58 AM
Bigwig Bigwig is offline
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Default Question about hand ranges & equity (calling vs. raising, yada yada)

Now, we know (at least, I hope we all know), that certain hands have different equity depending on whether or not you're facing a raise, or raising. As an example, KQs vs ATo from the button.

KQs has a higher equity value vs. two random hands than ATo.

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 47.0948 % 46.11% 00.99% { KQs }
Hand 2: 26.4828 % 25.50% 01.00% { random }
Hand 3: 26.4223 % 25.43% 01.00% { random }


equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 44.3021 % 42.98% 01.34% { ATo }
Hand 2: 27.8669 % 26.75% 01.12% { random }
Hand 3: 27.8310 % 26.71% 01.13% { random }


However, if you were the BB, facing a button raise from ~the top 30% of hands, ATo is a better holding than KQs.

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 46.0100 % 44.18% 01.83% { 55+, A2s+, K4s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, A5o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
Hand 2: 53.9900 % 52.16% 01.83% { KQs }


equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 43.5010 % 40.67% 02.83% { 55+, A2s+, K4s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, A5o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
Hand 2: 56.4990 % 53.67% 02.83% { ATo }


So, my question is: What would you rather be raising with from the button? Which hand is more valuable? Please elaborate.
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  #2  
Old 12-29-2005, 06:47 AM
curtains curtains is offline
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Default Re: Question about hand ranges & equity (calling vs. raising, yada yad


ATo but its really pretty irrelevant. Anytime you have like 15x BB or less, moving allin is +EV with both of these hands. However ATo is a bit stronger, as you will likely be called less frequently due to hogging the ace.

Also I have no idea why you calculated for two random hands. How often are both players going to call you! I find that calculation to be impractical and basically pointless.

Overall it just doesn't matter, these hands are both powerhouses from the button with high blinds in comparison to stack sizes.
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Old 12-29-2005, 06:53 AM
Bigwig Bigwig is offline
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Default Re: Question about hand ranges & equity (calling vs. raising, yada yad

[ QUOTE ]

ATo but its really pretty irrelevant. Anytime you have like 15x BB or less, moving allin is +EV with both of these hands. However ATo is a bit stronger, as you will likely be called less frequently due to hogging the ace.

Also I have no idea why you calculated for two random hands. How often are both players going to call you! I find that calculation to be impractical and basically pointless.

Overall it just doesn't matter, these hands are both powerhouses from the button with high blinds in comparison to stack sizes.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I didn't specify that this had to be an all-in situation. At least, I don't think I did.

And I'm not asking this question to specifically refer to the hands of ATo and KQs. This is more of a theoretical question. Should we assume that the better hand is the one that does best against the range that would call you? Or is the best hand the one that has the most preflop equity value? I lean toward the former in all-in situations, but I'm not sure about play before then.
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Old 12-29-2005, 06:56 AM
el_dusto el_dusto is offline
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Default Re: Question about hand ranges & equity (calling vs. raising, yada yad

I was completely confounded by the OP... I had to read it aloud a couple of times before it sunk in. I had a reply formulated, but I deleted it and started over a couple of times because it didn't make sense. Luckily, curtains came in with a post that made me feel better, and not like I wasn't getting some deep element of poker theory.

If I had a choice of which hand to make the move with, I'd pick ATo just for the A, but the difference is so tiny that I would make the same move with KQs if I got that, instead. I think trying to determine which hand is more powerful is slicing this tomato just a little too thinly.
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  #5  
Old 12-29-2005, 06:58 AM
lorinda lorinda is offline
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Default Re: Question about hand ranges & equity (calling vs. raising, yada yada)

I suspect the AT is slightly more valuable because bad players will call raises with Ax and either have to fold to a continuation bet (assuming they are bad/good enough that they don't stop/go) or call when they are dominated, while when you have KQ, they can actually sometimes outflop you with their Ax and there is nothing you can do about it.

Edit: Also, KQs loses some of it's suited value here because you will not always get to the river.

Lori
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  #6  
Old 12-29-2005, 06:59 AM
Bigwig Bigwig is offline
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Default Re: Question about hand ranges & equity (calling vs. raising, yada yad

[ QUOTE ]
I was completely confounded by the OP... I had to read it aloud a couple of times before it sunk in. I had a reply formulated, but I deleted it and started over a couple of times because it didn't make sense. Luckily, curtains came in with a post that made me feel better, and not like I wasn't getting some deep element of poker theory.

If I had a choice of which hand to make the move with, I'd pick ATo just for the A, but the difference is so tiny that I would make the same move with KQs if I got that, instead. I think trying to determine which hand is more powerful is slicing this tomato just a little too thinly.

[/ QUOTE ]
Again, the question isn't whether or not you would do something differently. I wouldn't either. The question is which you'd rather have, and why. You say, "Cause of the A." Okay. I was hoping for more, but if that's it, so be it.
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  #7  
Old 12-29-2005, 07:00 AM
Bigwig Bigwig is offline
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Default Re: Question about hand ranges & equity (calling vs. raising, yada yad

[ QUOTE ]
I suspect the AT is slightly more valuable because bad players will call raises with Ax and either have to fold to a continuation bet (assuming they are bad/good enough that they don't stop/go) or call when they are dominated, while when you have KQ, they can actually sometimes outflop you with their Ax and there is nothing you can do about it.

Edit: Also, KQs loses some of it's value here because you will not always get to the river.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

So you believe the more powerful hand for yourself should be based on the likely range that you are facing if called, and not it's general equity value?

Everyone following me here?
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  #8  
Old 12-29-2005, 07:02 AM
lorinda lorinda is offline
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Default Re: Question about hand ranges & equity (calling vs. raising, yada yad

The equity value assumes you see all five board cards. Some hands won't manage that, which is why small suited connectors usually stink so bad in SNGs and why LHE players sometimes have a hard time adjusting.

Lori
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  #9  
Old 12-29-2005, 07:04 AM
Bigwig Bigwig is offline
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Default Re: Question about hand ranges & equity (calling vs. raising, yada yad

[ QUOTE ]
The equity value assumes you see all five board cards. Some hands won't manage that, which is why small suited connectors usually stink so bad in SNGs and why LHE players sometimes have a hard time adjusting.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]
I realize that. However, does this mean we should pay little attention to the difference between AKs and AKo? Same principle applies there.
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  #10  
Old 12-29-2005, 07:08 AM
lorinda lorinda is offline
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Default Re: Question about hand ranges & equity (calling vs. raising, yada yad

I could happily play a SNG where I didn't know the suits of my cards until after the flop was dealt. I don't think it would impact me much at all, except possibly heads up.

I think that you have to play your opponent's range, because if you are not called, it does not matter what you are holding.
Of course, working out your opponent's range is the tricky bit [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Lori
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