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  #1  
Old 12-27-2002, 08:25 AM
Mikey Mikey is offline
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Default AsJs flush draw stay in or drop out?

Ok I haven't posted in a while, but I was at the Taj playing 5-10, I know I should post this in the small stakes forum, but this type of game I was in qualifies for a mid limit post.

I'm 2nd to act and I was contimplating about raising with my AhJh after a previous limper. The reason why is that I don't want to discourage anyone with a smaller Ace to fold and I want to gain info from the people behind me if they infact hold a raising hand (a better raising hand) Plus my hand works great multiway as well. Well I limp after the first person limps. Thinking about it now I should have probably raised the weak limper and I emphasize the word weak because he almost virtually limped on every hand. Well anyway I limp then one other person limps and there is a raise. Cutoff cold calls, button drops, SB calls BB calls, first limper calls, and I close the round with my call.

So now there is $80 in the flop with 8 people to take this flop. The flop comes.

Qh 4h 3s.

The SB checks. The BB checks, I check. <---- I think I should have bet, but I'm thinking that the original raiser will bet because he does like this flop from the little look in his eye. Plus my bet won't scare anyone out, and I'm hoping that if I hit a heart on the turn it would be a good way to pull in the checkraise...since there is only one other person between me and the raiser. The raiser bets out, the guy to go next to him raises, and the SB 3 bets. BB drops and original bettor drops. Now it comes to me. Do I call the $15 cold or do I fold? but you have to think that I'm going to be possibly putting in $20 with what has transpired thus far on the flop. The rest of the hand is irrelevant because I want your input on what I should do on the flop. Thanks for the input.



----Just for info. I realized what I did wrong on this hand. It was a tough decision for me to either raise or call the original limpers bet, because I did emphasize that I don't want to lose a weaker Ace and I want to find out if someone has a bigger one behind me.

----On the flop I debated whether betting or checking was correct, but at the same time I did not want to bet only to have the original raiser raise and kill my customers behind me.

Do you see my rationalizations on my decisions? What do you think?

Also think ahead that if a heart doesn't fall on the turn I'm facing at least $20 on the turn or possibly $30 or $40.

Decisions....Decisions.....Decisions.....
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  #2  
Old 12-27-2002, 08:37 AM
Ed Miller Ed Miller is offline
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Default Re: AsJs flush draw stay in or drop out?

You absolutely can't fold. You have the nut flush draw with pot odds coming out of your wozonga. If the cap is a bet and three raises, I think you should cap here. If it isn't, I still think you should consider raising to disguise your hand.
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  #3  
Old 12-27-2002, 11:29 AM
drewjustdrew drewjustdrew is offline
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Default Re: AsJs flush draw stay in or drop out?

I agree. You can't fold. You not only have the nut flush draw, you also have two runner-runner gutshots for a straight. I know from the way the hand played out so far that you are behind to at least KQ if not stronger. I would have bet out on the flop and hoped to eliminate some aces looking to share a pot if it hit. Besides, I doubt you are going to lose many on such a big pot.

My biggest fear for the turn obviously would be for the board to pair. Then, if you are facing two big-bets cold, you really have to go into the think tank and calculate odds.
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Old 12-27-2002, 06:23 PM
Huh Huh is offline
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Default Re: AsJs flush draw stay in or drop out?

I think you have a clear pre-flop raise. I agree AJs enjoys just about any size group, I would be doing more to protect the AJ portion of my hand and less to draw in bets for the suited portion. If you had raised, the over-card outs might be good, at this point I think they are worthless.

I agree with your flop check with the pre-flop raiser immediately acting after you, but you should do this with the intention of checkóraising. With a group this big you want to build the pot up. The hitch is, if you think the raiser will three bet, and you think this will drive the remaining players out of the pot, a check-call is probably in order. Obviously, this is not a problem in this hand.

With three other people in the pot you should raise, if you donít think you will lose anyone. Discounting two of your hearts, you are still 2.6:1 to hit the nut flush by the end. I am discounting these cards because they pair the board, which in my opinion kills your hand.

I suspect there is a set and two-pair out there, which makes your hand even more appealing. Assuming that a paired board kills your hand, itís nice to have some of these cards tied up (but of course you would much rather everyone have no full-house chances). Who knows what the last guy has, maybe a straight draw, or a smaller flush. Sure, there is probably someone ahead of you who is drawing to a better hand with more outs, but there are likely two people drawing dead, and you have more than enough equity on every chip that goes into that pot.

If you donít get your heart on the turn, I would go into check-call mode. If the board pairs on the turn, things get hairy. I would put down a side bet that you were drawing dead, but itís a damn big pot at this pointÖHopefully it wont cost 8 big bets to see it to the end.

How rare is this type of flop action in this game. I may be giving your opponents too much respect and I am rather curious. Would you mind posting the results, or at least the turn/river cards and who showed down what?

Huh?

BTW Ė So what made this such a special $5-$10 game? Donít really care that this is in mid-high, but in general I find the advice on both small and medium stakes boards to be equally sound. Iíve played the Taj $5-$10 pretty regularly and donít think very highly of the players. They donít seem tricky, just confusing. Iíve never seen so many people open-limp on the button [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]


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  #5  
Old 12-28-2002, 04:00 AM
Mikey Mikey is offline
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Default RESULTS

well on the turn fell a 9d. I checked and called..only one bet. On the river fell the 9s. It went check check check all the way around. QK the reraiser took down the pot. The first flop raiser showed down Q4 for a flopped two pair that got killed on the river.

The reason I posted this 5-10 game here is because you hardly ever see, in a 5-10 game on the flop, check, bet, raise, reraise.

Some of those guys may have been loose preflop but they all played well after the flop. Also there was some limp reraising going on before the flop.
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  #6  
Old 12-28-2002, 06:41 AM
Ulysses Ulysses is offline
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Default Re: RESULTS

The reason I posted this 5-10 game here is because you hardly ever see, in a 5-10 game on the flop, check, bet, raise, reraise.

It's funny how different games are in different places. In Northern California, you'll see that all the time in both 3-6 and 6-12 games. In fact, you'll probably see it more than in 15-30/20-40 games for a number of reasons.
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  #7  
Old 12-28-2002, 03:19 PM
Tommy Angelo Tommy Angelo is offline
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Default Re: AsJs flush draw stay in or drop out?

Mikey,

Preflop: I think the decision to raise or not in spots like that should pretty much be made before the cards are dealt. Sorta like how outfielders know which base to throw to.

Postflop: Again, it's already decided. When I play ace-suited, I'm going to the river if I flop the nut flush draw. Just a matter of walk or run. With your hand, with all those players lined up behind me, I'd just as soon walk.

Tommy
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  #8  
Old 12-28-2002, 06:23 PM
Dynasty Dynasty is offline
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Default Re: AsJs flush draw stay in or drop out?

I would have called the flop 3-bet with 9h8h. You shouldn't have to ask about AhJh.
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  #9  
Old 12-28-2002, 08:31 PM
David Ottosen David Ottosen is offline
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Default Re: AsJs flush draw stay in or drop out?

First: I don't think games where 8 people see a flop in a preflop raised pot is typical of mid limit games. It sure it typical of low limit games.

Second: you should consider 3-betting preflop.

Third: "Plus my bet won't scare anyone out". You don't understand pot odds or EV yet if you are sincerely making this statement.

Fourth: say "Guess I'll save time" and cap it. Folding isn't even a consideration!?

Fifth: Turn play is a part of the reason you 4 bet here. It can help prevent you from having to call 3-4 bets on the turn.
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  #10  
Old 12-28-2002, 09:29 PM
anatta anatta is offline
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Default Re: AsJs flush draw stay in or drop out?

Welcome back, Mikey.

In a loose game, being suited makes the difference between raising or limping (or folding) AJ in EP. I would raise AJs. I understand your point about the only hands that fold are the hands that you dominate, but I think AJs is too strong a hand not to raise.

Folding on the flop here is just a bad card play. Remember, you are 2:1 against hitting to the nuts. With 3 opponents, any money you put in, you have the best of it. Cap it.


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