Reading books and 2+2 vs. Experience

[Triumph36]

This is an odd post, so bear with me.

I multi-table NL200 6 max. I've built my roll from an initial deposit of $400 into around $6000 over the last nine months.

I've read most of the books I can get my hands on - Super/System, PL/NL by Ciaffone and Reuben, Ace on the River I own and have read several times, I've read HEFAP and some of TOP.

Yet I wonder how good I'd be at poker if I hadn't read those books or read this website. Back when I was crushing the Paradise Poker 7 stud play money and only understood the basic concepts - could I have figured the more complicated concepts out, like the 5 and 10 rule? Would I have even come up with the idea of implied odds, if I hadn't read about it? I've worked hard to build this bankroll, both by studying and playing, but I take pride in figuring things out myself. I see players overplaying their ace queen or calling too much pre-flop with a pocket pair and think, would I be doing that if I hadn't read not to? When would it have occured to me through experience that high broadway cards are a trap hand rather than a Vince Van Patten 'real hand'?

I understand the stock response to this kind of thought is that the books are available to anyone who wants them, and 2+2 is available to anyone who wants it, and that I'm just taking advantage. Maybe I just want to claim I'm a self-taught genius like Prahlad Friedman or Phil Ivey - or I just want to be better than the fish I beat even without the extra advantages. I don't know.

It looks as though you've been successful. Who cares how you got there? Following the advice of better, more experienced players is nothing to be ashamed of.

Here's something I've noticed after reading this site for a couple of months - my play improves the most not when I follow the advice of others word for word, but rather use it to tweak my game.

I got myself into a bit of a rut early on by taking things that the respected posters said as gospel. Well, not everyone agrees on how to play in a given situation, and some of the techniques these guys use only work at a high level, not the lower levels where I live.

The books I've read and the postings here have definitely helped me, but I think it's important to develop my own game within the basic framework that others have laid out. I have a tendency to get trapped in an uncreative "this is the way the experts at twoplustwo say to play it" mindset. I'm starting to realize that, although these experts are better than me, they aren't always smarter. Some are, some aren't. This means I may just stumble on a better technique through observation and trial and error.

Don't know if this get's to the heart of your post. I'm just kind of freelancing here.

[mosquito]

Why be ashamed of taking advantage of learning opportunities?

Do you think modern day math geniuses feel any less skilled, because they learned calculus from a book rather than discovering it for themselves? No one learns in a vacuum.

Be as good as you can be, but don't make it harder than it has to be. You will get to a level that's tough as heck eventually, and have to learn more than what is in a book. If you don't, please send me some $$$$.

Why not learn in a day what takes other people a lifetime?

These resources are out there for a reason. They arent "cheating".

[whiskeytown]

I can't speak for everyone....just myself -

Personally, without reading poker books, I wouldn't be where I am today skillwise. Basically, before the books, Doyle, Chip, Slim, and whoever just did what we do here - we TALK about poker. I didn't have anyone good to talk about poker with till 2+2

In fact, I would almost dare say I've learned as much or more from the forum then I did from the books - books are good, but they're like textbook examples of battlefield tactics. They're good only as long as you know the battleground and where the enemy is going to be. They're great theories, but when you fire the salvo and find out the enemy isn't in front, but in behind, that's where the advanced skillset comes in -

I used to play a game years ago called Advanced Squad Leader - I was doing a replay in a magazine - like when you replay great classic Chess encounters, except it was a complicated squad level WWII tactical game. it was a replay of a scenario in which Russian and German squads try to take control of certain buildings, and the two players were two of the best in the ASL community.

Prior to the replay, they outlined their strategy for the scenario for the readers, and as the turns went on, they made it clear that certain tactics weren't working (outflanking) and certain tactics were (complete possession of one particular building that totally FUBAR'd the flanking manuevers) - and these two guys did everything they could to win, and they kept the situation fluid, and modified their attack/defense. In poker, we call it "changing gears" - LOL.

You will find a point where you go beyond that and really rise up to the game and I am doing things now I don't see in any 2+2 book -

for example - I push hands like AA and KK early in a low limit pokerstars tourney. Why? - because so many players WILL interpret that as a bluff or a dare to try a showdown vs. AK - How did I learn this - by discussing it with other players and trying it and eventually, as I keep trying it and checking Pokertracker stats, I may find it more +EV then any other way I play big pocket pairs in these cheapo tourneys. Obviously, at the WSOP, NO - at a $10 SNG - NO - but the $1 tourneys....yes.

Read the books, read the forums, and play all over creation - One of the things a friend told me was to travel all over and learn how to play these poker games in other places - I found already that I've had to back off my bluffs/aggression a bit in Vegas because there are too many callers -

Even the 2+2 books have a lot of "do this, unless..." to them. It will be your mastery of these situations that will make you great. In a way, the books will take you part of the way, but you will take yourself there as well.

Is that a good enough answer? - I've been up too many goddamn hours and just played 4 hrs. of the best poker of my life and I'm exhausted - [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

RB

Another former ASL player? I love it. Hopefully someday I can make back what ASL cost me over the years... -EV for sure, but a hell of a lot of fun.

[Dan Mezick]

You cannot learn to ride a bike from a book. You ride based on mostly on "feel". Books cant teach "feel".

Most new bike riders watch another ride and learn from that teacher.

After experience, you can read in books about specific strategies and tactics for being truly competitive in bike riding's many forms.

Well done. I couldn't have said that better myself. The books give you the basics, but, as Doyle says, "nothing beats experience."

[Triumph36]

Oops. Forgot I posted this - seems like you guys have all offered some good advice.

I think the math analogies are particularly relevant, as well as appeals to experience rather than book learning. I can only think of a few specific things I keep in mind while playing that I learned in a book, and to take the next step, one has to transcend that which is learned in books - even directly contradicting common advice.