low limit o8 post flop folds

In low limit PP games, 1-2 or 2-4 specifically; do you fold non nut high hands, and non nut high draws (with 12-13 outs), on a 2-3 high card board vs. one or two opponents? In other words, would you continue with the idiot end, or the 2nd nut flush etc? What about h/u on the turn/riv, do you fold to the paired board w/the nut flush h/u?

I find myself losing money playing the non nuts, even short handed post flop. (I don't have 2k hands yet, so I know it's not significant statistically, that's why I'm asking you all) But, when I make the folds, I see that I would've taken it down often enough to make me 2nd guess folding.

I don't have this trouble w/the non nut lows, they always find the muck, and the few times I'm wrong I don't 2nd guess myself.

[chaos]

It is hard to give general answers. But I'll try.

Things are often clear when two or three high cards flop. Players who are betting or raising have strong high hands or strong high draws. If you only have a weak, non-nut draw you may want to wait for a more favorable situation to invest your money.

I think a straight draw by itself is a rather weak hand. Frequently the board will end up with three of a suit or paired. If you are going to draw to a straight make sure it is the nut straight and proceed with caution.

If opponents are giving you lots of action and you only have a non-nut flush draw, I would tend to lay it down. This is especially true if it is not possible for someone to have flopped a straight. In this case you may be up against a hand like trips or two pair and/or the nut flush draw.

If the flop is paired I do not draw for straights or flushes. It doesn't matter whether they are the nut straight or not.

If only one or two opponents see the flop, there is a good chance that one or both were going low and may not have much for high. If two opponents are going past the flop when three high cards flop, I would put them on some kind of hand. You will have to pay attention to what kinds of hands they are showing down. Figure out who is only showing down strong hands and avoid giving them action. You can make these non-nut calls against looser players who are showing down weaker hands.

How you play a given drawing hand will be dependent on the number and nature of your opponents, the size of the pot (was there a preflop raise), your hand, the board, your position, and the other players actions.

Thanks chaos. I'm just looking for what you're thinking about in these types of spots.

To be more specific tho:

No raises pre, "you" are 1st to act, it was 4 or 5 handed on the flop till the guy on your left bet, folded around to button who called. bettor is loose/fairly passive, button is extremely losse passive. both players constantly show down 2 pair etc.

[Ironman]

gads,

You are in early position. Do you really want to play the rest of this hand out of position with a weak hand?

Will you win a big pot with this type of hand? Probably not.

Could you get sucked along against two players that have you beat and lose 2 or 3 big bets? Absolutely.

Dave

[Buzz]

Travis - How your opponents play makes a big difference in how you should play. I don't know specifically about PP since I don't play there.

[ QUOTE ]
would you continue with the idiot end, or the 2nd nut flush etc?

[/ QUOTE ]

Those two seem quite different to me. In general, I think a 2nd nut flush is much stronger than the idiot end of a straight.

I don't think you can really lump all the high hands together. Full houses, flushes and straights all have different considerations.

[ QUOTE ]
do you fold to the paired board w/the nut flush h/u?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess "h/u" means heads-up. In general, no, I wouldn't fold the nut flush if heads-up. When the board is singly paired on the river and you have no piece of it, quads are possible, as are six different full houses. Each of the full houses is at a different step in strength. Think of the nut flush as one step below the worst possible full house. Would you fold the worst possible full house? (It's a rhetorical question).

[ QUOTE ]
I find myself losing money playing the non nuts, even short handed post flop.... But, when I make the folds, I see that I would've taken it down often enough to make me 2nd guess folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Welcome to the club.

There simply is no way of getting around knowing how your opponents play.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't have this trouble w/the non nut lows, they always find the muck, and the few times I'm wrong I don't 2nd guess myself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems a reasonably level headed approach. Actually, there's usually more involved than just having the non-nut low. What to do with anything depends on (1) how your opponents are playing, (2) all the cards on the board and (3) all the cards in your hand. There's no pat rule on how best to play non-nut hands. When you're starting, I think you're at least safer if you play tightly so as to avoid starting hands where you'll end up with certain non-nut hands, particularly non-nut lows and non-nut straights.

But after you learn more about the game and how your opponents are playing, I think you can expand your range of starting hands. You can hardly play
A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img],5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] if you're going to fold non-nut low hands after the flop, but in truth I believe that hand is a stronger starting hand than
A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img],8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

Here are my simulation numbers for both hands in a nine-handed game against eight non-folding opponents dealt random hands (and with random boards) 10000 times:
hand.....high.....low.....scoop.....total
A288s.....285.....762.....591.....1638
A45Ks-.....354.....778.....564.....1696

The A288s starting hand makes both the nut low and the nut flush more often than the A45Ks- hand, yet the latter hand did better in the nine-handed simulations. What does that mean? I think it means a strong, experienced player can probably do as well with the A45Ks- hand as with the A288s hand. But maybe while you're a beginner, you should avoid hands like A45Ks-, where you're more likely to end up with the second-nuts than the nuts.

That's just my opinion.

Note: If you've been follwing recent discussions here, I don't know how you can ever again can trust anyone who posts simulation data on this forum. But let me at least assure you that I do not find falsifying simulation data in response to a question from an inexperienced player (or for any reason) amusing.

Buzz

750 hands of lo8, (I know it's miniscule), and my VPIP is 15%, I don't think I have a problem playing to MANY hands (but maybe not enough) preflop. I play fairly well in small stakes holdem post flop, but o8 is taking a while to adjust to. My reads in lo8 need a LOT of work. It's hard to phrase this question much more specifically w/out a hand history, but I'm really just trying to get a feel for what you all are thinking about w/non nut hands.

It seems I'm overvaluing non nut str8s. I thought I was overvaluing the flushes before. Because of my preflop starting requirements it seems like I'm very often in there with a naked nut low, but it's not bothersome with 6 people on the flop/4 turn/and 3 riv, even if the betting is crazy most of the way. I'm not getting 1/4'd much.

I scoop nearly as often as I win the high according to poker tracker.

Is 15% VPIP reasonable?

[Ironman]

Yes 15% is reasonable.

With that few amount of hands, the difference between 15% and 20% is just a very few hands here or there.

I wouldn't be too aggressive here and think of adding more hands, the odd hand here or there will bring you up on it's own.

Dave