Playing against people who “don’t play properly”!

I’ll start this post by saying that I am very new to poker and not yet a winning player.

But I would just like some feedback on the way that I am thinking about poker.


I have read many posts on 2+2 to the effect of “you can’t beat the nano / micro limits because people don’t play like they should “

To me, this is a NONSENSE. For two reasons:

1) They are implying that you can’t beat them because they aren’t playing in a predictable manner

And MUCH more importantly


2) They seem to be missing the concept of winning long term. The simple concept is making each decision when you have +EV. If you take this as the starting point (and IF you can achieve this) then it is IMPOSSIBLE to lose over the long run? Sure, you will get drawn out on more, BUT if you are getting the correct odds to play- the higher amount of people calling you down will mean that the rewards (when you do take the pots) will more than offset the losses?


Sorry if this is really obvious to some. And I don’t claim I can even beat the nano’s at the moment- but I just want to check that my line of thought is correct?

So in short, my understanding is that:

ALL games at ALL levels are beatable, IF you understand the fundamentals of how the money is gained.


Different games / limits will require different strategies, BUT the fundamental principle that guides those decisions does not change in any shape or form.


Some people use the “you can’t beat the nano / micro limits because people don’t play like they should” excuse because they don’t really understand the PRINCIPLE behind it all- and have just learned ABC from a book.


Let me put this to the forum: If you put the same argument into the context of Blackjack, SURELY every casino in Vegas would ONLY allow you to play the game if you could DEMONSTRATE that you can “play properly”!!!! Daft play doesn’t effect their “edge”. I know it’s not a DIRECT comparison because their edge is (virtually) fixed at a set rate, as opposed to poker where your edge is dynamic depending on the decisions you make. But the principle is surely the same- IF you have an edge, it doesn’t matter how you opponents play- you will profit long term.

I’m going to keep learning and grinding away at the 0.02/0.04 until I’ve cracked it. I appreciate I will have to adjust my play as I move up, but I NEED to KNOW WHY I am adjusting my play.

Sorry to rample!

Regards,
Ian

[pokergrader]

Standard.

[MicroBob]

I didn't read your whole post because I'm tired (it's late here) but you are generally correct from what I saw.

"I have read many posts on 2+2 to the effect of “you can’t beat the nano / micro limits because people don’t play like they should "


I don't see that many 2+2'ers who think this way.
Most of the time, if anyone even HINTS at that attitude they get torn apart.
If they are saying, "Ummmm...YEAH RIGHT. The reason you can't beat them is because they don't play right" then perhaps there is also an issue here of you not quite picking up on the sarcasm....because almost ALL long-time 2+2'ers pretty much understand that you WANT players who do not play correctly.

This usually means they are too loose and call down or raise with improper odds.

Ed Miller explains a lot of this in his book Small Stakes Holdem which you (and everyone else) should get.



Your blackjack analogy is very flawed though and I'm going to pick a bit of a nit about it.

There can be quite a bit of difference...but the casino still doesn't care because even if the player is playing perfect basic-strategy the casino still has an edge.

usually the casino's edge over a player playing perfect-strategy will be 0.5% - 1% (depending on the rules of the game).
Most players do not play perfect strategy.
(those of you reading this....if you THINK you play perfect-strategy, you are probably wrong. It is different than what 99% of the people out there think it is).
Those who play the 'generally accepted' strategy are playing a decent game still and are not making too many serious errors. Their disadvantage might be in the 1-1.2% range I would guess.
Then there are those who play just a generally bad game. Not hitting their 14 v. 9. Not doubling-down on their 11 vs. an 8 because they have a 'bad feeling' about it.
Their disadvantage has to be pushing 2.5% or higher I would think.
And then there are the crazy drunks who might double-down on a hard-6 or hard-12, or stand on a soft 6 (ace and a five), etc etc. They could be pushing 4-5% disadvantage.

Then there are the expert card-counters who might be operating at a 0.5% advantage.

This is really not all that different from poker where some players suck a ton and are at a 5% disadvnatage or so but still get some wins just due to variance and running lucky.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see that many 2+2'ers who think this way.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, in hindsight I should have said "I've read "some" posts..."


I appreciate your reply.

Ian

[tonypaladino]

I don't see why it's hard to understand that these games can't be beaten. It's impossible to win unless you're at a lever where they respect your raises.

<font color="white"> fix your sarcasm dectector</font>

[TimsterToo]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see why it's hard to understand that these games can't be beaten. It's impossible to win unless you're at a lever where they respect your raises.

<font color="white"> fix your sarcasm dectector</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

HAHAHA [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I was just about to call you a troll and say stuff about people needing post count until I read the message you hid.

Made me laugh. Feel better now. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Some people use the “you can’t beat the nano / micro limits because people don’t play like they should” excuse because they don’t really understand the PRINCIPLE behind it all- and have just learned ABC from a book.

[/ QUOTE ]

Imo, they're not even up to the ABC part yet. People who think this way aren't even breakeven players.

b

[POKhER]

Just always remember,

Long term is long term... It could be 10 000 hands that your +EV decisions start brining your winrate up.

It could be 100 000... it could be 230 000.

Im sure eventually theres a number than shows your true winrate that factors in all the +EV discions and the sucks outs you've encountered? but maybe not. probably somethign to do with SD but i suck at maths.

Anyhow bottom line is, they can be CHRUSHED. But the suck outs and varience you will experience is megger!

I may go play some 0.02/.04 later actually for a laugh.

[phish]

You are correct.

All those people who complain about not being able to win cause their opponents 'play so bad' are just idiots who are one of the ones playing so bad. There are many ways to play bad and many people don't recognize how they are playing bad.