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  #1  
Old 12-28-2005, 05:41 AM
joewatch joewatch is offline
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Default Middle set 9s vs. turn 3-str8 and flush draw

Please critique my play. Smart or big leak?

$100 PL Omaha
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 8: Villain ( $217.62 ) = overall solid, tight/aggr player
Seat 2: Hero ( $100 )

Preflop: Dealt to Hero [ 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ]
UTG folds, Hero calls [$1], EP3 calls [$1] MP1 folds, MP2 calls [$1], MP3 folds, CO calls [$1] Villain calls [$1], SB raises [$2], all call.

** Dealing Flop ** (16.65)[ 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ]
Check to Hero, Hero bets [$16.65], folded to Villain, Villain calls [$16.65], blinds fold.

** Dealing Turn ** (48.30) [ 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ]
Hero bets [$48.30], Villain raises [$96.60], Hero calls all-In.

** Dealing River ** [ 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ]
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  #2  
Old 12-28-2005, 10:28 AM
Tilt Tilt is offline
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Default Re: Middle set 9s vs. turn 3-str8 and flush draw

"overall solid, tight/aggr player"

Meh, tough hand. The only option I can think of is to bet only 1/2 the pot on the turn and rely on the fact that he will only raise you with the straight and not the flush draw. A TAG will usually just call with the draw so I think that line could make sense. The problem is some players (myself included) would come over the top of you with just the draw if they saw you make some half-ass weak blocking bet like I just suggested.

I guess you really either need a flop c/r with your stack size the way it is, or just lay back and see what the turn brings. Getting 20% of the lesser of you/your opponents stack in on the flop with a set on a draw heavy board is the prefect amount for trouble. Lately I have been trying to invest either <10% or >40%, and nothing in between in this kind of situation. I'm rambling, but maybe betting 1/2 the pot on the flop is a better way to go.
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Old 12-28-2005, 03:27 PM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Re: Middle set 9s vs. turn 3-str8 and flush draw

What is your general plan when you bet a set on the flop and get called in one or more spots indicating only draws ususally, and a draw gets there on the turn, especially when your hand has no flush draw to go with a draw to fill when the straight comes on the turn? The plain fact is, and more so out of position, you are just going to have to check/fold.

While in the example given it is true that you don't know exactly whether the straight card helped him since there is also a flush draw present, the way you described his play indicates that he isn't usually just going to be calling with an 8 out draw for 2-1 on his money if he thinks you won't pay him off.

But oh wait! You did pay him off and in advance, although the river helped you and you might have actually won unless he had TT plus a draw that hit on the turn (my guess). The only virtue of betting the pot on the turn is that you avoid being bluffed by a different draw and will have the odds to call off the rest of your stack if raised. Which is OK sometimes against habitual bluff raisers but not against TAGs.

One of the facts of big bet is that being out of position sucks and you are sometimes going to have to allow yourself to be bluffed off the best hand when a scare card gets there, in order to win on those situations in the long run. And in order not to be taken advantage of by aggressive players behind you, you need to bet excellent draws as well as sets, and occasionally check that set that is still the nuts or the draw that gets there on the turn, and checkraise those players. This will help balance your strategy and not make yourself so exploitable.
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  #4  
Old 12-28-2005, 03:51 PM
joewatch joewatch is offline
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Default Re: Middle set 9s vs. turn 3-str8 and flush draw

Thanks to Bluff and Tilt for your excellent replies.

Bluff, can you explain this statement?

[ QUOTE ]
you are sometimes going to have to allow yourself to be bluffed off the best hand when a scare card gets there, in order to win on those situations in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

My reason to pot it on the turn was as you said, I couldn't be bluffed off the pot, and I would have the correct odds to call the rest of my stack even if Villain hit the nut str8.

Interestingly, Rolf described nearly the exact same situation in his article "Ace Speaks: An unusual play", and advocates check-raising all-in in order to cut down on the implied odds. However, I was worried that occasionally, this TAG will check behind if he has a drawing hand.

I was definitely not worried that Villain had TTQJ or ATTx because I know his play well enough that he would have raised the flop.
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  #5  
Old 12-28-2005, 04:38 PM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Re: Middle set 9s vs. turn 3-str8 and flush draw

Joe, I was just repeating what Ciaffone and others have said in their writings, that you have to be willing to fold what might be the best hand in order to be a winner overall. This is different than limit where the pot is going to be so big that you justified in calling with outs to improve, but where in pot limit you can be getting insufficient odds to call unless you place the possibility of a bluff at a certain level (the subject of a recent thread).

And I did indicate that the play you made could be correct against known aggressive bluffers (which also can include TAGs). But that player as you described him is likely on the flop to have a two way draw and thus is more likely to hit any draw that gets there. That read is key to making the correct play.
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