Preflop from Blinds

[shemp]

15/30, 2/3 blinds.

Tilty LAG Open raise 3utg, complete live one coldcalls, I look at K2s in SB. BB is loose, aggressive preflop, passive postflop.

Solid EP Open raise. 2 LP loose passive and SB coldcall. I have 72s in BB.

I folded. I'm pretty sure an expert plays both. What say y'all?

[Joe Tall]

I think they are both clear folds.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[J.A.Sucker]

Hand 1 is close, especially with an aggressive loose goose in the BB. I'd hate being trapped for 2 more bets coming back with a ragged hand like Kxs here. It he was a rock, it may be closer, though I'd still fold.

Hand 2 I call, looking for a flop to fold on, instead of a flop to play on. This prevents you from getting in too much trouble if you flop OK, but not great.

[worm33]

If your thinking about either one of these...may god help you

[shemp]

[ QUOTE ]
If your thinking about either one of these...may god help you

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't play an abdulian preflop strategy, but if you haven't at least thought about it, may Allah help you.

[astroglide]

i would play both without consideration

[CrackerZack]

I enjoy this post. It makes me want to rant. Really only about hand 1 though, the K2s.

Begin rant:

Hand 1 is a very interesting hand. Yes its very close, but I think this is a fold here. This situation plays out like one of those tables where the game looks great, lots of loose play, and bad players, but you have crappy position on all of them and end up being forced out by a number of isolation raises and unable to limp because some LAG on your left will make you pay at least 2 to see that flop. Back to the hand...PFR is LAG so your chances of running into a dominated hand are much lower (unless he has A2s! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]) which gives some reason to play on, and the fact its a 2/3 blind structure gives some reason to play on. The fact that the BB will very likely play also is a bit more reason to play on, but I still fold, its a position fold. Not I'm in the SB and always have to act first position fold, but a position on the raiser fold. You can say with almost all certainly by the fact BB is loose, passive post flop and LAG is next to act that the bet on the flop is coming from you, or LAG, he won't let it be checked through after raising PF. Just doesn't happen. And you can't do anything with his betting. Regardless of what the flop brings you're facing a situation where it is very difficult to manipulate your opponents. A check-raise can't adequately protect a vulnerable hand like top pair because LP will already have called the LAG bet. Betting out may face LP with 2 cold, but BB likely has already called. Either way you're looking at a situation where you're likely facing at least 2 opponents from the flop on with little to nothing you can do about it. Maybe you flop a flush draw, and can check-call and keep them all in, but getting a likely 5-1 PF for this situation is a losing proposition and you be able won't make it up post flop. From the other side, I played a hand a few weeks back, similar situation, but instead, EP was the limper and C/O raised. I called out of the SB with 65s knowing that if I hit the flop, I could check-raise likely forcing the BB and EP out, and if I flopped a good draw, I could bet and build a nice multiway pot. The key to calling was knowing I had position next to the raiser and could have decent control over the number of bets people had to face at once.

Anyway, this is probably something people consider all the time but don't vocalize it. Maybe they should. If the raise comes from your immediate right you have a much better situation for playing on here. In many games people are loose aggressive, or loose passive or tight, etc, but this is just a general statement. Rare is the player that you can count on every hand to bet your hand for you, or to raise your bet forcing others to call multiple bets. We love those players, but they just aren't that common. But its not rare for the PFR to follow through. For this single hand, he can often be counted on to play the act of aggressor, and if we have position to take advantage of that, then we have a large edge.

Anyway, I'm done, if this is obvious to everyone, oh well, hope the prose was at least somewhat entertaining. If it makes someone consider something they hadn't before, well then I've done a little bit to give back some of the tremendous amount of knowledge these forums have given me.

End rant.

Zack

[astroglide]

i fold 67% to a steal in the small blind, and 62% in the big blind. i voluntarily put money in from the sb 58%, and there strangely doesn't appear to be a stat for the bb on that, but it's bound to be scalably larger.

[CrackerZack]

You should preface this by saying you play in a 2 chip, 3 chip blind structure as it makes much looser play from the SB correct. If a 3-6 player is putting money in 58% of the time they're taking a bath from that position.

[shemp]

I think the central postflop dynamic is the mere presence of LAG on tilt, whale, and passive postflop player -- but that it really doesn't matter. More importantly, I think you and me!, are over-emphasizing post-flop playability (which is still favorable) -- and, in fact, it is simply that K2s stands on its own so solidly equity-wise versus price -- and that as JAS says, the only other factor that matters with a kook-raise and a kook-call is what the BB will do.