Bet the river

[shemp]

Online 15/30. 8-way. After a lot of folding, I've just gotten cracked twice in succession and made a bad river bet with A-high, so my image is poor.

Preflop I raise UTG w/ JJ (good starters come in bunches), MP, Button and SB call. 9 SBs.

Flop T96 rainbow. I bet, fold, button raises, BB calls, I 3-bet and both call. I think Button has a T or a 9, but probably not AT. He doesn't need a lot to raise. 18 SBs.

Turn 5, and second club. [T965] I bet and both call. 12 BBs.

River 8, and third club. [T9658] Checked to me. I think SB would bet a straight or two pair here. I Bet. Button raises. SB folds, I call.

Thoughts?

[shemp]

I left off the fact that the top card was a club, that may make it less likely that Button has clubs. I add that detail for others, because it was a Tc doesn't really change anything for me, because I think the SB would bet out (I could of course be wrong) if he made a hand on the river*(that's my default view, that an out of position player will bet a hand on the river when the board is scary and might get checked down), and I don't put the button on a backdoor flush draw given his flop raise.

I bet because I thought I was good and figured there were enough Ts I beat, I felt the only better conceivable hand that SB could have was 2-pair. I paid off, well, because I usually pay off, and partly on the theory that button might try to knock SB off two pair and me off my overpair, although I doubt I figure to win there 1 in 15.

[elysium]

hi shemp
whatever you have here, you don't have a value bet. if you put the button on a non-draw, then you need to give him credit for something. that board? the only reason to bet is to get the fold. your image won't get that done, so whatever you have here, you don't have a bet that will generate a stronger hand than yours to fold. you should check-fold shemp. the only hand that you can fold here is a hand that you're ahead of.

o.k. shemp.

when you're in this spot, you approach this problem from this perspective. you simply ask, 'if i check, and my opponent checks it behind, will i win this hand?' if the answer is yes, then bet; if the answer is probably not, then check and call or check-fold. since you have an over-caller, check-fold.

[shemp]

I was under the impression that top pair and second pair and worse routinely calls in the hands of many no matter how scary the board. I wasn't thinking I could get a better hand to fold.

[elysium]

hi shemp
did the SB call? i'm not on that page. i forgot. shemp, whatever you do here, image preservation is not high on the list of targets to be accomplishly tarried. not grammatically correct.....hmmmm, tarry means delay? (little webster's) i thought it meant worked, no? anyway, not grammatically correct shemp, but you get the point. your image is one of being a loser because, to put it bluntly, you're losing. shemp, we have all shared such the same. again, not grammatically correct, but you get the point. my general motto in this spot, is, 'when losing, lose leastly or else the more you lose.'

[shemp]

I'm not concerned about image other than knowing what others think of me as it might concern their play. I am concerned about correctly value betting.

The SB folded to the river raise.

[ QUOTE ]
'when losing, lose leastly or else the more you lose.'

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what to make of this. It sounds like a suggestion to be a bit more passive out of position when getting beaten, which might be good advice. Is that it? Is it really pertinent to betting the river here?

[astroglide]

I paid off, well, because I usually pay off, and partly on the theory that button might try to knock SB off two pair and me off my overpair, although I doubt I figure to win there 1 in 15.

i'm constantly trying to wade through this type of quagmire as well. as for the hand, i would have played it the same...